DunedinDragon wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 10:36 pm
Because there's an enormous difference between running a version of Linux based Ableton that is customized to a specific piece of hardware in a controlled environment, and one that works across various general computer hardware platforms and is functionally capable of supporting all the various pieces of existing 3rd party hardware and software addons that are prevalent in the Ableton Live eco system. The testing and support costs alone would be staggering.
You're right when it comes to some things and some other statements are inaccurate. Let's address them one by one, shall we?
I've just run Ableton Live for Windows on Linux via wine with 512 samples using a pair of USB headphones. Ableton certainly hasn't tested this configuration at all. They're also not supporting it at all. I'll write more about this at the end.
That so called customized version of Linux running on the Push 3 standalone has bugs due to the changes Ableton has made to it. It's using a custom version of the Linux kernel 5.15 which isn't up to date. It lacks the security updates and the bug fixes included in the latest patch version of kernel 5.15. It seems this custom OS isn't that good so far. There are people here who've had that custom OS break. It probably stopped booting. Do you know how a Linux system stops booting? It's usually file system corruption due to a kernel bug, due to a failed update or due to some bug in a script which wiped out something critical for the OS (such as a bootloader configuration file, the kernel or some module). I wouldn't praise Ableton's efforts there too much after seeing how many bugs they have. A regular and standard Linux OS running on some store bought PC is more reliable than their Push 3 standalone right now. I have a laptop which runs Linux. It never fails to boot. It never crashes. Do you know what's its secret? It doesn't use an older patch version of the LTS kernel with additional private patches on top. The custom patches and it being an older version are the two big issues with it.
The hardware support and the compatibility with hardware isn't Ableton's responsibility for the most part. The audio drivers come from the manufacturer of the hardware device, from Microsoft as class compliant USB devices or from Microsoft for generic audio devices (to some extent for HDA audio) on Windows. The same goes for macOS. There are hardware devices which just work without device specific drivers.
MIDI devices should also work just fine. That gives us two types of devices which would work on Linux: audio and midi. All of these have the necessary drivers in the kernel. The absence of a specific driver means that the device doesn't work if it's not compatible with generic devices.
Ableton isn't developing custom kernel drivers for all the devices and hardware it suppports. They have mappings, configuration, code, scripts and other things for controllers. They don't maintain the Linux kernel or drivers inside the Linux kernel. This means they don't have to do more work than just to test their application code with the hardware to make sure it handles it properly. The control surfaces are the perfect example because they're often just MIDI devices.
You're right that they'd have to provide support and help people. They don't have to carry the burden of developing and testing everything as you seem to be stating in your reply. A considerable part of that is handled through the development of the Linux kernel and many associated packages they just use. They just use standard interfaces and libraries to work with those features. Ableton Live doesn't need to be tested with a specific sound card to work with it. It's the same as with Windows and macOS. You have ASIO compatible audio devices on Windows. You have CoreAudio on macOS.
Doing this is possible. Bitwig is doing it. I've tested their DAW on Linux. It really works through their flatpak. I'm pretty sure these people haven't tested my actual configuration and my hardware. They've merely put together an x86_64 flatpak for their app. I install it on any distro with flatpak and pipewire/pulseaudio to use it with my hardware. You need to see it.
[jur] wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 1:21 am
Sure, and for way longer than you would imagine.
All I'm saying is that, as someone who's not an IT, programmer, or even a doctor, I do my best to not (at least publicly!) ride uneducated conclusions on matters like how google search's algorithm works or how to treat someone suffering from a cancer.
And afaik Autodidactic isn't a dev @Ableton, so I feel like what seems to obvious from Autodidactic's own perspective, well...
That being said, I'm one of those who's been dreaming to one day being able to run Live and Max on Linux... not because I want to learn using Linux but just to stop giving money to apple, so I totally understand the desire and I'll celebrate with you the day it'll happen (if it does !)
That moment may be closer than you think. You also don't need to do much work to get things going. Windows frequently requires fiddling more with drivers and settings just to function properly. Does anyone recall having to mess with power profiles on Windows 10 to not get pops and crackles? I do.
macOS has its own issues.
[jur] wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:47 pm
Login, I like using mac OS as that's by accident what I learned using a computer with. I think it's brilliant, but that's plain simple habits.
Every time I had to work on a windows system I was lost, and if I have to learn and adapt to something new at some point, I for sure would only accept to put this effort if it's for Linux.
Apple, Windows, same thing to me, politically, so since I'm too lazy and uninterested in computer geekeries, I'll keep on cowardly giving my money to the same church when required until a switch to Linux becomes possible.
It's good to read this. It's not the same, yet Proton (the custom Wine packaged by Valve) makes it possible to run old games which can't be run on Windows 10/11. Linux would provide compatibility for a longer time. It'd be the thing which helps people upgrade hardware when they want to do so.
kitekrazy wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 3:51 pm
[jur] wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:47 pm
Login, I like using mac OS as that's by accident what I learned using a computer with. I think it's brilliant, but that's plain simple habits.
Every time I had to work on a windows system I was lost, and if I have to learn and adapt to something new at some point, I for sure would only accept to put this effort if it's for Linux.
Apple, Windows, same thing to me, politically, so since I'm too lazy and uninterested in computer geekeries, I'll keep on cowardly giving my money to the same church when required until a switch to Linux becomes possible.
I'm glad you figured that out. The other issue is with Apple and Windows keeps developers busy with the (d)evolving OS. Linux users are going to have to wait in the pumpkin patch with Charlie Brown for the Great Pumpkin to arrive.
If I were into Linux I'd check out the DAWs that support it.
This was funny. I'm not saying I disagree. It made me laugh. It's a good idea to use what's there already as long as it has a Linux version.
I've discovered
https://github.com/nine7nine/Wine-NSPA/issues/4,
https://github.com/nine7nine/Wine-NSPA/wiki,
https://github.com/nine7nine/Wine-NSPA and
https://github.com/nine7nine/Linux-NSPA ... A-pkgbuild today.
The options.txt for Ableton Live found on this page
https://github.com/nine7nine/Wine-NSPA/issues/4 have reduced the CPU usage of Ableton Live 11.2.11 when run under wine. Ableton's total CPU usage under wine was at about 270-300% when playing back the demo track. It was using about 2.7-3 cores. This is a reduction from the 450-480% it was previously using without these tweaks.
I didn't even have to try the custom version of wine (wine-NSPA repository), nor the realtime kernel packages (Linux-NSPA-pkgbuild repository), to get this performance.
Running Live under Wine isn't a far fetched idea. It works. It does have some issues which need to be addressed.
Perhaps the first step is to get Live 11.3 to install under wine. There were some people who didn't want to have the Push driver and the tray area icon on Windows anyway. Making the Push driver optional on Linux would be a first good step.
). Compared to the two other mainstream OS offerings, the open source Linux environment is simply a superior, user empowering, developer encouraging, and creativity enabling platform at every level.