Ableton Forum

resequenced wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 27, 2023 7:01 am

The software is so buggy that it appears to be somewhere between an early alpha and a beta version. We've been made unwilling participants in the testing of a product in exchange for a lot of money. This isn't a cheap product. I don't want to pay this much money to do free work for Ableton by testing their unfinished product. I've lost track of the number of hours spent testing to figure out if something is a bug, working around bugs, writing reports for Ableton for the bugs, analyzing my own logs, telling Ableton what they may want to do to improve the Push 3 standalone's OS and so on. What's the goal? To help make the product actually be the product we've already paid 1900 euros or 2000 to receive?
Why should we bother to do Ableton's QA work?

Actually I think that gets into a much bigger issue in the modern world that is far from unique to this product. I am entirely used to seeing this many bugs in fully released versions of software and ahrdware, and for a portion of users to end up being bug finders. I totally understand why this is unacceptable to some people, but it is something I am very used to and it is not unique to Ableton. Obviously the psychology around price affects how angry some people get about this sort of thing.

Statements which praise the Push 3 made by people who haven't held a Push 3 in their hands don't mean much. That's not even mean or condescending. It's the hard truth. You watch review videos on the Internet, read an incomplete manual and you might expect things to work properly or the hardware to be usable. You might find out when it arrives that there's one bug or that there a few bugs which don't allow you to do even the most basic things in your workflow. I'm not even thinking of cutting up audio, recording, editing samples, comping, mastering, live performances and many other things people are doing using the desktop version of Live.

None of the bugs have been show-stoppers for my particular workflow at the current time. Lucky me, I know this is no consolation for others for whom the bugs are ruining the experience. It just means I am an example of how user experiences and satisfaction will vary, how even when we concentrate only on people who have actually used the standalone Push 3, there will be a spectrum of opinion and satisfaction levels.

resequenced wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 27, 2023 7:01 am

The Push 3 standalone comes with an outdated UEFI firmware for the NUC compute element. Issues such as battery drain and several other issues we experience can be due to that as well. Issues with latency can be caused by non-maskable interrupts caused by the firmware of the NUC compute element. The version running on my unit was [...]68 from last year. The latest one when I checked was [...]72 from May.

The Ableton OS which is based on Linux could use some improvements of its own. It's running a custom version of the 5.15.48 Linux kernel. This is an older version. Newer versions of the 5.15 kernel are likely to include bug fixes for ext4 file system corruption. Such bugs may be the reason why some Push 3 standalone units stopped booting. A capable team of developers shouldn't have any difficulties updating this kernel in 2-5 days and pushing it out for broader testing. An upgrade to a Linux 6.1 kernel would bring some incredible performance improvements for audio processing software of all kinds. Countless improvements have been made to ALSA (which is used by the Push 3 standalone for audio), to drivers, to the CPU scheduler (which has a major impact on performance, even more so under heavy load), to the file systems (ext4 has received many performance and stability improvements), to the network code (better for Ableton Link, better for downloading packs, transferring sets and other user library content) and to many other parts of the kernel. All of this means you'd get a much more reliable product with better performance and more stable latency.

if there are some facts/truth in what you are saying (i dont have any clue about this topic), and we assume that the ableton dev team is not completely aware by some of this (which is hard to believe), you could try to hit them up... maybe they are willing to hear u out, or at least, you could raise some of your concerns and they could have a look at it.

certainly, they want the product to be as good as possible.

sinik wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 27, 2023 10:46 am

if there are some facts/truth in what you are saying (i dont have any clue about this topic), and we assume that the ableton dev team is not completely aware by some of this (which is hard to believe), you could try to hit them up... maybe they are willing to hear u out, or at least, you could raise some of your concerns and they could have a look at it.

certainly, they want the product to be as good as possible.

Yes, the person from Ableton support I was in touch with has forwarded all my suggestions to the development team. This was back when they were still replying to messages and before I told them I wish to return my Push 3 standalone.

I've also recommended they stop distributing the packs, Live and other things being downloaded on the Push 3 standalone as .zip archives. They should use zstd because it compresses faster, decompresses faster and produces smaller archives. It'll take less time to download and unpack the content archived with zstd. This is particularly important for those on slower Internet connections or with data allowances from their ISP.

resequenced wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 27, 2023 11:47 am

Yes, the person from Ableton support I was in touch with has forwarded all my suggestions to the development team. This was back when they were still replying to messages and before I told them I wish to return my Push 3 standalone.

I've also recommended they stop distributing the packs, Live and other things being downloaded on the Push 3 standalone as .zip archives. They should use zstd because it compresses faster, decompresses faster and produces smaller archives. It'll take less time to download and unpack the content archived with zstd. This is particularly important for those on slower Internet connections or with data allowances from their ISP.

thank you for your effort. i'm planning to get a push 3 standalone as well, once they are available at retailers (if not from ableton).
im sure ableton will be succesfull on fixing as many bugs as possible in the meantime.

I may have some first hand experience if I order the tethered edition in the next couple weeks.
That said, stability is paramount for a performance machine, and I don't need ableton to tell me that whatever chip and HD they put in a push along with some secret sauce code is never going to replace the latest computer
*for speed and responsiveness.
*for future-proofing
*for the complexity going into a realtime rendering of a piece of music
*for expandability and extension/library support
*for the visual real-estate necessary to understand what the heck is going on

Anyone who is thinking of this purchase might be well served by downloading Note first. What to learn there?
*Are the tracks you are making syncing well with Ableton Cloud? Test out your network issues
*Are the tracks you are making sonically represented by the desktop version of Ableton? Are you satisfied with how your work translated to Ableton Live and vis versa?
*Are you inspired? Are you making worthwhile seed ideas or rhythms or strung together sections into music you can stand behind?
*Do you like working in a satellite, supplemental platform such as iOS?

If these aren't smooth, welcomed translations into your workflow, then consider that Push 3 Standalone is just an amplified version of that, active development notwithstanding.

What I do think you can expect above this comparison is an instrument that opens up some of the expressiveness that you might not access otherwise. I've definitely tried some chincy corner-cutting approaches to MPE, and you'll spend real money whichever solution you throw at this, unless you are satisfied with modulation curves and m4l. So on this front, the only adage I'd apply would be to not throw the baby out with the bathwater...

Hi,
the whole GPL sourcecode discussion is the same as with Native Instruments / Maschine+.
It is known that Native Instruments is using Yocto (some sort of an embedded hardware linux distribution builder) - which has tools to fully support legal correct GPL export stuff. They do not do it (correct). They do not provide the GPL patches.

It took some month to motivate NI to - at least - export the Licenses they use in the Maschine+.
Due to the fact that you have to own the hardware/software to request the GPL sources i was not able to go any further (because i don't own the Maschine+).

What does this all mean for the Ableton Push 3?

- yes, afaik: Ableton is violating at least the GPL licensed Linux Kernel - as long as they made patches. In the Push 3 case it may be possible that they even don't need to patch the standard Linux Kernel. So it may be possible just to say: Nothing changed, download from kernel.org.
But there are more software packages used than that. Bootloader, maybe GPL, ...
- yes, afaik: they at least need to ship the (GPL) software package list, or they violate the GPL and other licenses - but i don't know if there is a physical paper in the package when a Push3 is delivered.

UPDATE: (due to the fact that i was able to check on a Push 3 standalone):
- Ableton is shipping the license list at http://push.local/third-party-licensing ... ation.html (integrated into the push firmware)
- The Push 3 manual (https://www.ableton.com/de/push/manual/) at 2.2.8.4 Advanced Options mentions this (more precise, http://push.local/legal). There are still the patches missing but let's see if there will be some progress within the next weeks/months.

- no, afaik: it would not be possible just to run Live on Linux just because there is something on the Push3 which is x86_64. This *might* be a special version without GUI support, with special logic for hardware interaction, without support for VSTs and so on. Nothing would be helpful for a desktop linux version
- yes: i think (as far as i have seen the teardowns): it's more than a fair modular concept to have a replaceable CPU and storage module (whaaaat? did someone mention standard NVME?????). It's just awesome if that's true.

- "just takes some days to port the kernel" ---

Ouuuhsh.....What... No. We are not in desktop/standard Server land here.
There is a specific special CPU module. Yes, it's just x86_64 but if there is one (!) small difference/patch for the standard upstream linux kernel (maybe even some UEFI magic, device tree stuff, ...) That may hurt some people to "just port".
And also, only changing the underlying OS stuff isn't fixing stuff automatically with magical performance gain. No one outside of the ableton dev team can make assumptions if an upgrade to the 6.x kernel would bring any real measurable audio performance.
No one would know if there are special ALSA drivers made by ableton or companies who created the hardware / audio interface.
It is not known yet (i think?) how audio is really handled.
And the internal audio core of Live will not live in ALSA so record, playback and that's all - no real performance gain in "Audio" due to a move to a newer kernel. Audio processing in Live will be completely in userspace - as with the Desktop Version.
That would not make some big differences.

Ableton Link? Better Network Code? Ableton Link isn't that complex that you will get such performance addition here. The linux network code isn't that good as FreeBSD but it's awesome, stable and fast enough since years.

I would be really careful to judge the Ableton Dev Team and i would also be very careful the the mentioned "hey, just update the OS" would be the bug killer. Obviously not. Give the team some time. Compare the idea, the hardware with e.g. the Maschine+.
I know which device would technically win without any doubt.

Regarding software updates and stability - time will tell.


Bye
Björn

sinik wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 27, 2023 1:41 pm

resequenced wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 27, 2023 11:47 am

Yes, the person from Ableton support I was in touch with has forwarded all my suggestions to the development team. This was back when they were still replying to messages and before I told them I wish to return my Push 3 standalone.

I've also recommended they stop distributing the packs, Live and other things being downloaded on the Push 3 standalone as .zip archives. They should use zstd because it compresses faster, decompresses faster and produces smaller archives. It'll take less time to download and unpack the content archived with zstd. This is particularly important for those on slower Internet connections or with data allowances from their ISP.

thank you for your effort. i'm planning to get a push 3 standalone as well, once they are available at retailers (if not from ableton).
im sure ableton will be succesfull on fixing as many bugs as possible in the meantime.

While expensive, my overall experience with the Push 3 has been mostly positive.

There have been a few glitches but I haven't experienced any major crashes. And I have put it to use for a live gig and it worked well there.

That said my use of standalone have been not too frequent as it makes more sense to use in controller mode when near a PC. But it works well for the few road trips I had.

IMO it's pretty simple really, get a basic Scene constructing Song mode, Follow Actions, and the ability to set a time signature for a Scene.
Song mode doesn't have to be complex, the MPCs song mode is as simple as it gets. None of these things are impossible. I realize it's kicking water uphill to just pout about it on the internet, even on their forums. I signed up for Push 3 testing on Centercode and voted on new features there. I encourage anyone else who wants these things to post there. Live 12 looks like such a fantastic upgrade that I'm definitely back in Live full time, and these three things would "fix" standalone operation for me.

Agree a simple MPC song mode is more than fine. Although I do think there is opportunity to do something smart. I.e. what if you could double-click/shift tap the session view button to see song mode. Each pad could represent a section, and then holding the pad would give options to pick a specific scene for that section, and the number of repeats. Bit closer to the Deluge. Even better would be the ability to select which clip pattern per track goes into that section. Click a new pad in song mode, sets up the next section. Unlike follow actions, triggering song mode will always be linear, but you could trigger anywhere in the timeline by single tapping a pad (aka a section). Likewise, when holding a pad, there can be an option to loop the selected section. Shift+pad in song mode will take you directly to the pattern for the selected track as a short cut for destructive editing.

If we want ultra amazing , like Deluge, holding a pad (aka a section) would also reveal a setting on screen called 'Unique'. With this selected, shift+pad will jump into a pattern but any changes will be unique to song mode only, therefore enabling non-destructive editing of the original pattern for unique edits. Deluge did this part well as it solves the problem of having unique moments derived from a smaller set of patterns and reduces need to have too many patterns/clips.

My rating is 97% awesome.
Push 3 is the best experience ive ever had with an electronic instrument, after a decade of grooveboxes(electron/maschine), synths and eurorack.

Its like having the worlds best sampler on your lap, with enough processing and synthy power to spark creativity forever.
And in comparison, the pads are about 300 times better than on push2.
Very happy with the product, it just feels so good to use.

There are some bugs, but i think ableton will smooth everything out.

Sorry for those people who bought it on launch day, hoping it would be 100%.
I dont think hardware can replace a daw with a mouse and a big screen, but that depends on what kind of music you make ofc.
But as of now, if you want a great instrument and dont assume it will replace your computer, i can heartily recommend.


Thanks Ableton crew.
G

oboulys wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 29, 2023 12:49 pm

My rating is 97% awesome.
Push 3 is the best experience ive ever had with an electronic instrument, after a decade of grooveboxes(electron/maschine), synths and eurorack.

Its like having the worlds best sampler on your lap, with enough processing and synthy power to spark creativity forever.
And in comparison, the pads are about 300 times better than on push2.
Very happy with the product, it just feels so good to use.

There are some bugs, but i think ableton will smooth everything out.

Sorry for those people who bought it on launch day, hoping it would be 100%.
I dont think hardware can replace a daw with a mouse and a big screen, but that depends on what kind of music you make ofc.
But as of now, if you want a great instrument and dont assume it will replace your computer, i can heartily recommend.


Thanks Ableton crew.
G

I like how you didn't address a single complaint, but hey...

Well the fact my Push 3 received on Mon died one day later and Ableton clearly don't have enough resources to respond to customers is not good start. The fact I can't return my completely bricked paperweight to a shop to get a replacement like I could have done with Push 1 and a Push 2 is another major downer. Going on holiday in 2 weeks and forsee many weeks of wasted time with Ableton support ahead of me.

robleighton22 wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 29, 2023 8:23 pm

Well the fact my Push 3 received on Mon died one day later and Ableton clearly don't have enough resources to respond to customers is not good start. The fact I can't return my completely bricked paperweight to a shop to get a replacement like I could have done with Push 1 and a Push 2 is another major downer. Going on holiday in 2 weeks and forsee many weeks of wasted time with Ableton support ahead of me.

To be fair, mostly it's a long time from a reply, but quick after initial contact. Good luck.

robleighton22 wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 29, 2023 8:23 pm

Well the fact my Push 3 received on Mon died one day later and Ableton clearly don't have enough resources to respond to customers is not good start. The fact I can't return my completely bricked paperweight to a shop to get a replacement like I could have done with Push 1 and a Push 2 is another major downer. Going on holiday in 2 weeks and forsee many weeks of wasted time with Ableton support ahead of me.

Yikes, I'm waiting for mine to be delivered tomorrow. In what way did it die?

Check my other post - I managed to revive it myself.

I recommend updating straight to the latest beta firmware before doing anything more when you first get it. There are some major fixes since the official release regards rebooting issues. Also as it's Linux / a computer under the hood, a serious crash may occur and seem worse than it is. I.e. it doesn't mean it's bricked and you just need to know there are ways to get it going again.

For me, it wouldn't switch on, but the power battery indicator was showing when replugging power, and holding the on button, the green save button flickers. This means it's still working but just needs a hard reset. If you run into this situation feel free to msg me and I'll run you through the steps. Ableton support is pretty slow atm, did get a response this morning after almost 5 days and their steps were also potentially helpful - but just a little late.

Enjoy your new Push, I am confident it will be more stable in time and prob it's already a lot more stable than its initial release. 2 days since reviving it and no issues.