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Re: is PDC fixed in 12?
Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2024 3:53 pm
by scg
spinlud wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 9:03 am
So the only way to properly use plugins like Xfer LFOTool or similar in Ableton is to avoid any plugin with latency in the chain before the LFOTool, is that correct?
There is one workaround, which is to use triggering (MIDI or audio - MIDI may be preferable in some cases) for plugins that support it. Cableguys' ShaperBox, for example, supports both MIDI and audio triggering. I use ShaperBox as much as I can rather than alternatives like Auto Pan or other tools that might be susceptible to this issue, and I MIDI-trigger pretty much every single ShaperBox instance. It's a pain, but as far as I know it's an effective solution. You can also achieve similar results with SerumFX, if you have that available. So, there are options, but if you have some favorite plugins that don't have a trigger option, there might not be easy workarounds.
Re: is PDC fixed in 12?
Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2024 8:08 pm
by spinlud
scg wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2024 3:53 pm
spinlud wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 9:03 am
So the only way to properly use plugins like Xfer LFOTool or similar in Ableton is to avoid any plugin with latency in the chain before the LFOTool, is that correct?
There is one workaround, which is to use triggering (MIDI or audio - MIDI may be preferable in some cases) for plugins that support it. Cableguys' ShaperBox, for example, supports both MIDI and audio triggering. I use ShaperBox as much as I can rather than alternatives like Auto Pan or other tools that might be susceptible to this issue, and I MIDI-trigger pretty much every single ShaperBox instance. It's a pain, but as far as I know it's an effective solution. You can also achieve similar results with SerumFX, if you have that available. So, there are options, but if you have some favorite plugins that don't have a trigger option, there might not be easy workarounds.
Thanks for sharing this, very useful to know!
Btw I have asked to Ableton support about pdc issue, this is their answer:
This is indeed well known but unfortunately, it needs fundamental changes to Live's code and is not easy to achieve.
So I can't give you a promise or time estimate when this will be fixed.
I am afraid they will never fix this after all these years, so we have to stick with workarounds. Sad because Ableton is such a beautiful daw
Re: is PDC fixed in 12?
Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2024 8:32 pm
by scg
I'm not surprised it's not an easy fix, although it's unfortunate that we're likely stuck with the issue. For what it's worth, Logic has similar problems with delay compensation, and while you can use MIDI triggering to solve the problem in Logic as well, it's much more awkward than in Ableton. So at least there's a relatively convenient workaround in Ableton (provided of course you're using a plugin with triggering capabilities).
Re: is PDC fixed in 12?
Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2024 7:56 am
by fx23
They could at least allow a 'manual' possible fix, a bit like track delays
users could be able to control a vst clock ppq offset on the device, that doesnt implies complex audio delay lines like audio pdc, that's just a simple add/sub float operation on timing datas
Re: is PDC fixed in 12?
Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2024 4:02 pm
by JT Static
I tried this today (searching for another issue I noticed) and seems this is finally fixed in Ableton 12.1. now?
At least couldn't reproduce it following the steps in the video using Operator and multiple Compressors with 10ms lookahead.
Another issue related to this which made me look up this in the first place was when I used 10ms lookahead in sidechain compressor and I wanted to do a layered comparison with / without effect, the waveform was already so much offset with the two instances of PsyScope that visual comparison was not possible.
However using ML Align Delay (some other delay plugin should work as well) and grouping it together with dry signal, then muting the delayed signal allowed me to do a comparison without affecting playback. Hopefully this trick is helpful to others trying to achieve the same:
BTW, thanks for developing PsyScope, it has really helped me to visualize how different kind of processing affect the audio.
Re: is PDC fixed in 12?
Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2024 11:04 am
by Dr_Hdt
Midi clock / transport signal delay compensation isn't fixed. Your test condition might have been wrong setup.
Re: is PDC fixed in 12?
Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2024 10:04 am
by spinlud
PDC is not fixed in 12.1
Just reproduce this test
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8dc4_YJCwg
Re: is PDC fixed in 12?
Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2024 10:46 pm
by fx23
its def not fixed
Re: is PDC fixed in 12?
Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2024 6:06 am
by Calagan
I don't get this test : I reproduced it and on my machine the PDC is working fine. I can add as many 10ms lookahead compressors I want, everything is sounding exactly like if I don't add them...
Are you sure you don't have some settings disabled ? Or maybe there's something I don't get...
EDIT : I use Live 12.0.25 on a M1 pro
Re: is PDC fixed in 12?
Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2024 6:32 am
by mr.adl
Just tested using the Test file provided in the video and i have no such issues, it stays completely in sync with the metronome.
Running a M3 Max Macbook running MacOS Sonoma.
Re: is PDC fixed in 12?
Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2024 8:52 am
by spinlud
mr.adl wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2024 6:32 am
Just tested using the Test file provided in the video and i have no such issues, it stays completely in sync with the metronome.
Running a M3 Max Macbook running MacOS Sonoma.
That's really weird. Can you run the project attached, activate the metronome and check if signal/metronome are in sync?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1iMkkbA ... sp=sharing
Re: is PDC fixed in 12?
Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2024 9:19 am
by mr.adl
spinlud wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2024 8:52 am
mr.adl wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2024 6:32 am
Just tested using the Test file provided in the video and i have no such issues, it stays completely in sync with the metronome.
Running a M3 Max Macbook running MacOS Sonoma.
That's really weird. Can you run the project attached, activate the metronome and check if signal/metronome are in sync?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1iMkkbA ... sp=sharing
I did, no problems. Made a video here:
https://dropover.cloud/86f1b0
Re: is PDC fixed in 12?
Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2024 9:29 am
by spinlud
mr.adl wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2024 9:19 am
spinlud wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2024 8:52 am
mr.adl wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2024 6:32 am
Just tested using the Test file provided in the video and i have no such issues, it stays completely in sync with the metronome.
Running a M3 Max Macbook running MacOS Sonoma.
That's really weird. Can you run the project attached, activate the metronome and check if signal/metronome are in sync?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1iMkkbA ... sp=sharing
I did, no problems. Made a video here:
https://dropover.cloud/86f1b0
My friend they are not in sync
Try to remove all the compressors and you will hear the difference. You can duplicate the compressors even more to the increase the latency
Re: is PDC fixed in 12?
Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2024 11:48 am
by mr.adl
spinlud wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2024 9:29 am
My friend they are not in sync
Try to remove all the compressors and you will hear the difference. You can duplicate the compressors even more to the increase the latency
Ah shit, now i see what you mean. Disabling didn´t do any difference, deleting them did. Brought metronome and Operator to sync completely.
Re: is PDC fixed in 12?
Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2024 2:42 pm
by spinlud
mr.adl wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2024 11:48 am
spinlud wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2024 9:29 am
My friend they are not in sync
Try to remove all the compressors and you will hear the difference. You can duplicate the compressors even more to the increase the latency
Ah shit, now i see what you mean. Disabling didn´t do any difference, deleting them did. Brought metronome and Operator to sync completely.
Yeah disabling a plugin will not remove its latency. Only deleting it will do