Easy, when you want to unfreeze THEN it loads the VSTI and associated samples, not every freaking time you load the set, generally when I freeze something it stays frozen for quite some time, I don't need all that extra memory and loading time taken from me! Even better, make it an option (unload VSTI from memory on Freeze") That way there is a choice for people that like having all their memory unecesarilly eaten up alsoSpectre /Aural Motives wrote:but who do you think it will unfreeze frozen track for you if it won't load samples?Pandamonium wrote:Live 5 freeze is unusable here, which is a shame, because it's the only reason I paid for the upgrade. Not only does it load large VSTI (and their associated samples if a sampler VSTI) in memory even though track is frozen, it deletes frozen wavs next time you open the l;ive set!! Can't believe they released it in this state, I have come to expect a lot more from Ableton, very disapointed.
wow freeze function is really limited, huh ...
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Pandamonium
- Posts: 196
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Visit Pandamonium Records homepage @ http://www.pandamonium.com.au
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Site best viewed with stereo cranked.
I don't have Logic 7 but in 6, clicking on the freeze button doesn't take any time at all so you click as many as you want. Then when you hit play it processes all of the newly freezed tracks at once. This is not really the best way to do it either but being able to select multiple tracks in Live, right click and choose "freeze tracks" would be ideal.starving student wrote:does any app freeze multiple tracks at once?
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bensuthers
- Posts: 760
- Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 4:51 am
well, personally I'd like to be able to move frozen clips around in the arrange page. That should be easy enough for the Ableton's to do, and is what I think Robert is hinting at - turning a MIDI track into audio, not losing the midi, edit it, and then turn it back into MIDI. That would be sexy.
That said, what they have given me has saved my bacon. Thank you.
and as for multiout VST's ? I'm just loading more than one instance when I want to freeze....but then I have also given up on Native Instruments products.
That said, what they have given me has saved my bacon. Thank you.
and as for multiout VST's ? I'm just loading more than one instance when I want to freeze....but then I have also given up on Native Instruments products.
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serotoninsteve
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 2:27 pm
- Location: Luxembourg
Easy?bensuthers wrote: That should be easy enough for the Ableton's to do, and is what I think Robert is hinting at - turning a MIDI track into audio, not losing the midi, edit it, and then turn it back into MIDI. That would be sexy.
And what happens if you tweak your warpmarkers in the audiotrack and switch back to your miditrack, is then the instruments audioengine timestretched?
I already would be happy if there was a rightclick freeze to new audiotrack option, perhaps clip based instead of track based.
Greetings
MBP 15,4" 2,53GHz C2D 4Gb late 2008 / Mac OS X.6.2 / Novation Remote 37SL Compact / TriggerFinger / FaderfoxDJ2 / Padkontrol / UC33 / SM Audio TB202 / Audiofire2 / Apogee Duet / Event OPAL's / HD25 /
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bassntreble
- Posts: 42
- Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 3:23 am
- Location: NYC
Having worked with the freeze functions in a few apps, i feel they all kind of fall short in terms of time saving workflow. any time you want to change the arrangement of a frozen sequence or region or clip, you have to unfreeze and re-freeze anyway. I feel the freeze function has been added to apps as a marketing tool to keep up with the feature sets of competing apps.
I would propose someting along the lines of digidesign's "deactivate track" feature which has been in protools since OS9. with this feature, a track with all of it's associated plugins/instruments are completely deactivated (as opposed to bypassed) freeing up CPU. It's like turning off plugins but better because i've found that bypassing or 'turning off" plugs doesn't always reclaim CPU. Deactivation is like deleting the plug or track altogether, but all the settings are retained if you want to reactivate. It's not as elegant as a 1 button freeze but more useful IMHO.
Here's how it works. Let's say I have a VSTi and some plugins on an aux track (in Live's case a Midi track)and a 4 bar midi sequence. I want to free up some CPU so I'll route that track to a new audio track and record the sequence to audio. I then deactivate the track freeing up processor cycles and I'm able to manipulate the audio freely. If I want to change the sequence or automate, let's say a filter sweep, at a certain point in the arrangement, I just re-activate the vsti track, record my new clip or automation where I want it, dump the result to my audio track in the arrangement and deactivate the track again. The beauty of this is the user can render what ever they want without having to re-render an entire track. if you just want to change a small piece you can. Another adavantage to this is if, upon reactivating a deactivated track, the user is spiking the CPU they can deactivate other tracks to free CPU without having to render new audio tracks. Also in ProTools, when you re-open a session with some deactivated tracks, they will reactivate with all settings and patches intact (unless a sample library was moved/deleted or some other bonehead move)
It's basically the same as a freeze function but it's not automated. The user has much more control over what goes on.
I'm probably the only fan of digidesign's software ergonomics and engineering on this site (though I hate their buisness practices). I have to say, in terms of operation, Protools is very streamlined. they may not be the best at everything (midi editing is still pretty bad, but it's better than 2 years ago) but when it comes to manipulating audio they're pretty damn good. I get more done in Live and i love it as creative vehicle but a good part of my income comes from knowing how to use protools.
that's my 2 cents. i welcome any comments, questions, criticisms and convictions and, no, i didn't use spellcheck.

:edit:
one thing i forgot to mention, you can hide tracks in protools as well. So when you deactivate a track you can hide it and it's associated midi track so they don't take up screen real estate. sometimes i would have 30 tracks deactivated and hidden. if i wanted to tweek one part I would just show and re-activate that one track and make my changes. it also works great for doing submixes. if you submix a group of vocals to a single stereo track you can just de-activate and hide the individual vox tracks after bouncing them saving CPU and getting those tracks out of the way. if you want to make changes down the line you can just show and re-activate those tracks along with all their associated plugins, routings and settings intact and make adjuctments as necessary.
I would propose someting along the lines of digidesign's "deactivate track" feature which has been in protools since OS9. with this feature, a track with all of it's associated plugins/instruments are completely deactivated (as opposed to bypassed) freeing up CPU. It's like turning off plugins but better because i've found that bypassing or 'turning off" plugs doesn't always reclaim CPU. Deactivation is like deleting the plug or track altogether, but all the settings are retained if you want to reactivate. It's not as elegant as a 1 button freeze but more useful IMHO.
Here's how it works. Let's say I have a VSTi and some plugins on an aux track (in Live's case a Midi track)and a 4 bar midi sequence. I want to free up some CPU so I'll route that track to a new audio track and record the sequence to audio. I then deactivate the track freeing up processor cycles and I'm able to manipulate the audio freely. If I want to change the sequence or automate, let's say a filter sweep, at a certain point in the arrangement, I just re-activate the vsti track, record my new clip or automation where I want it, dump the result to my audio track in the arrangement and deactivate the track again. The beauty of this is the user can render what ever they want without having to re-render an entire track. if you just want to change a small piece you can. Another adavantage to this is if, upon reactivating a deactivated track, the user is spiking the CPU they can deactivate other tracks to free CPU without having to render new audio tracks. Also in ProTools, when you re-open a session with some deactivated tracks, they will reactivate with all settings and patches intact (unless a sample library was moved/deleted or some other bonehead move)
It's basically the same as a freeze function but it's not automated. The user has much more control over what goes on.
I'm probably the only fan of digidesign's software ergonomics and engineering on this site (though I hate their buisness practices). I have to say, in terms of operation, Protools is very streamlined. they may not be the best at everything (midi editing is still pretty bad, but it's better than 2 years ago) but when it comes to manipulating audio they're pretty damn good. I get more done in Live and i love it as creative vehicle but a good part of my income comes from knowing how to use protools.
that's my 2 cents. i welcome any comments, questions, criticisms and convictions and, no, i didn't use spellcheck.
:edit:
one thing i forgot to mention, you can hide tracks in protools as well. So when you deactivate a track you can hide it and it's associated midi track so they don't take up screen real estate. sometimes i would have 30 tracks deactivated and hidden. if i wanted to tweek one part I would just show and re-activate that one track and make my changes. it also works great for doing submixes. if you submix a group of vocals to a single stereo track you can just de-activate and hide the individual vox tracks after bouncing them saving CPU and getting those tracks out of the way. if you want to make changes down the line you can just show and re-activate those tracks along with all their associated plugins, routings and settings intact and make adjuctments as necessary.
be fair... from live 2 any fresh version of Live behaved unstable and badly.Pandamonium wrote:Live 5 freeze is unusable here, which is a shame, because it's the only reason I paid for the upgrade. Not only does it load large VSTI (and their associated samples if a sampler VSTI) in memory even though track is frozen, it deletes frozen wavs next time you open the l;ive set!! Can't believe they released it in this state, I have come to expect a lot more from Ableton, very disapointed.
So its all just business as usual and nothing unexpected about it.
You cant upgrade just after the release, at least you cant expect the program beeing stable and 100% functional...
Wait half a year and it will all work...Or return the upgrade..you bought a feature that isnt there... Its however difficult to return software updates.
The low moral of all the hackers leads to a bad customer handling from the side of the software companies what again leads to people prefering good hacks over bad updates...actually there should be a grace period for earlie upgraders...
You are a betatester when becoming an earlie user... You should get payment
The first logic versions for example that really forgot to implement the midi start command... They needed up to end 95 to bring it back...1 year without startcommand...And you cant call midi a new feature in 94...
It was the other way around..the fancy new audiotoys made the developers to forget about some essential basics... Logic isnt the center of the universe...But when you work all day on such a complex software it might feel for you like it...
History repeating
Lets face it... all this DAW/vst terror is all the time the same hazzle since 1994..
Learn to accept the pain or buy hardware..
and what is so bad about using a second track for that?..ok..a track hide function would be helpfull...serotoninsteve wrote:Easy?bensuthers wrote: That should be easy enough for the Ableton's to do, and is what I think Robert is hinting at - turning a MIDI track into audio, not losing the midi, edit it, and then turn it back into MIDI. That would be sexy.
And what happens if you tweak your warpmarkers in the audiotrack and switch back to your miditrack, is then the instruments audioengine timestretched?
I already would be happy if there was a rightclick freeze to new audiotrack option, perhaps clip based instead of track based.
Greetings
You people should ask for more basic things like better audio quality.. the rest of the features is well enough to produce professional music..The soundquality lacks..Ask for basics before you request more comfort...
Too much comfort will kill the program in the end...
Who needs freeze? Do you really need that many plugins?
Why?
Is it not sounding good enough without 10 of them for one track?
Or the nudge function..probably some people wished it..so Ableton implemented it..but...
Is the nudge function really helping the workflow? Or it it just causing hazzle wright now?
I will find out when i finaly do the upgrade...
I want live to be a perfect replacement for any other DAW..but...
It should stay simple and stable..a livetool and not a all features of the world included but difficult to use program like logic...
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bassntreble
- Posts: 42
- Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 3:23 am
- Location: NYC
dude, i have a 667mhz powerbook. I'm not getting a g5 desktop yet because of my living situation right now (1 bedroom in Manhattan w/a fiance that's a graphic designer? can you say "i need to rent a studio space"?) and those tasty Macintels are worth the wait i'm thinking. 1 instance of zebra kills my cpu. a freeze function would be welcome here. Protools is my bread and butter and live is the buddy i have drinks with on weeknights. I've done 3 remixes in the past month in live, but bought 2 of them into Protools to mix because my crappy laptop is...well...a crappy old laptop but I can still run 32 tracks in PT and bounce processed tracks all day long and have a 2 dozen tracks hidden and deactivated ready to be recalled if needed.3phase wrote: Who needs freeze? Do you really need that many plugins?
Why?
Is it not sounding good enough without 10 of them for one track?
Incidentally, I do tech work for a producer/engineer named Tom Moulton. He's mixed the Traamps, O'Jays, most anything that came out of Sear Sound in Philly in the late 70's-80's and he's currently remastering a Motown collection. Sometimes it does take 10 plugins + outboard to get the sound he wants. I don't get it sometimes but you know what, it works for him. Until one has a reputation and discography like Mr. Moulton's, I don't think they should be dictating what people should or shouldn't be doing with their software. Scratch that, no one should be able to tell you that.
You know you don't have to upgrade.
I'm sorry if this turned into a mini rant, but i hate it when someone tells me i shouldn't or can't do something.
I love it when my engineer peers say "but you can't do that.." and i just answer "i just did..."
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serotoninsteve
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 2:27 pm
- Location: Luxembourg
Freeze is a standard feature for every serious DAW today, using a second track is counterproductive as you need to disable all the plugins to free up CPU by hand3phase wrote:
and what is so bad about using a second track for that?..ok..a track hide function would be helpfull...
The soundquality is on a professional level, not much people are complaining and a serious example of bad sound quality has still to be delivered. Timestreching has already been improved with L5, other basics could have been implemented but surely will in the future.
You people should ask for more basic things like better audio quality.. the rest of the features is well enough to produce professional music..The soundquality lacks..Ask for basics before you request more comfort...
Too much overkill kills a program, but surely not comfi freeze wich allows you to realise your musical ideas without creating a track, resampling a bounch of clips and disabling a lot of devices manually.Too much comfort will kill the program in the end...
Who needs freeze? Do you really need that many plugins?
Why?
Is it not sounding good enough without 10 of them for one track?
I definately need a working freeze, I don´t use 10 on a track, but often more tracks, with one on each, than my laptop can handle.
The nudge is a great feature I think, but it doesn´t work like it should in some conditions.Or the nudge function..probably some people wished it..so Ableton implemented it..but...
Is the nudge function really helping the workflow? Or it it just causing hazzle wright now?
I never read here that somebody asked for a nudge function,
so it perhaps was implemented because the startmarker has been decoupled from the running clip.
I will find out when i finaly do the upgrade...
[/quote]
I´m not very happy with the final version too, but I´m pretty sure that all these new features will be improved in the next updates.
Greetings
MBP 15,4" 2,53GHz C2D 4Gb late 2008 / Mac OS X.6.2 / Novation Remote 37SL Compact / TriggerFinger / FaderfoxDJ2 / Padkontrol / UC33 / SM Audio TB202 / Audiofire2 / Apogee Duet / Event OPAL's / HD25 /
[quote="serotoninsteve"]
The soundquality is on a professional level, not much people are complaining and a serious example of bad sound quality has still to be delivered. Timestreching has already been improved with L5, other basics could have been implemented but surely will in the future.
[quote]
I realized that the common opinion is that everything is allwright...
But it dont helps the thing to talk the item better than it is on one hand and wishing super comfortable freeze functions on the other hand.
at least i personaly see a bigger benefit in improoving an essential detail than improoving comfort functions.
And i ve to admit that i talk about a detail. Some little differences in a A/B comparison with the same recording listened to on differnt programs.
But its allways little differences when we talk about soundquality.
I learned to trust my ears. Things often measure allwright but dont sound good.
An unwarped audiofile with unity gain should sound as it sounds and not flatned by Live. I just did a test again while writing this letter..
Just try it yourself... with a good monitor on a real listening level ( 85-90 db).
play a short cut from a goodsounding mix with depth and detail in live and in parralel in an good sample editor or just the quicktime player and listen A/B.. you can loop the unwarped audiofile with the follow actions.
Its important that the recording is not too long. A loop is better because you can listen to the same events over and over again..
first you might think it sounds the same...but concentrate on the details..the reverb tail on a percussiv hit for example...the colour of the attack in the bass region... make live a bit louder..it should sound better than...because our brain finds louder things usually sounding better...turn the level back to unity gain ..make the sample editor louder and have live a bit lower in volume...after doing that a few times i get a clear preference wich of the two audio players i want to be the louder one...The one with the finer highs, more depth and the better lowend..or call it the sweeter sounding one..
On my machine the quicktime player wins..listening in mono to a single speaker driven by a good little amp. Thats proove enough for me.
When ever i dont use live for a while and get back to it loading some well known audio files into it my first thought is.." nice program..wish its sum bus wouldnt fuck up the sound so much..." Just an emotion that is caused a by a tiny difference in sound ..
But that tiny bit sums easily up during a production. That brings me often in situations where i mix an in ableton produced track in Logic. and that is a lot of extra work.
I really want Live to replace Logic for me totaly.
Live 5 is a good step in this direction but its still not there.
However.. I use external mixing and direct running hardware again..
With this a production using Live can sound much better than a computer internal mix with logic .
The soundquality is on a professional level, not much people are complaining and a serious example of bad sound quality has still to be delivered. Timestreching has already been improved with L5, other basics could have been implemented but surely will in the future.
[quote]
I realized that the common opinion is that everything is allwright...
But it dont helps the thing to talk the item better than it is on one hand and wishing super comfortable freeze functions on the other hand.
at least i personaly see a bigger benefit in improoving an essential detail than improoving comfort functions.
And i ve to admit that i talk about a detail. Some little differences in a A/B comparison with the same recording listened to on differnt programs.
But its allways little differences when we talk about soundquality.
I learned to trust my ears. Things often measure allwright but dont sound good.
An unwarped audiofile with unity gain should sound as it sounds and not flatned by Live. I just did a test again while writing this letter..
Just try it yourself... with a good monitor on a real listening level ( 85-90 db).
play a short cut from a goodsounding mix with depth and detail in live and in parralel in an good sample editor or just the quicktime player and listen A/B.. you can loop the unwarped audiofile with the follow actions.
Its important that the recording is not too long. A loop is better because you can listen to the same events over and over again..
first you might think it sounds the same...but concentrate on the details..the reverb tail on a percussiv hit for example...the colour of the attack in the bass region... make live a bit louder..it should sound better than...because our brain finds louder things usually sounding better...turn the level back to unity gain ..make the sample editor louder and have live a bit lower in volume...after doing that a few times i get a clear preference wich of the two audio players i want to be the louder one...The one with the finer highs, more depth and the better lowend..or call it the sweeter sounding one..
On my machine the quicktime player wins..listening in mono to a single speaker driven by a good little amp. Thats proove enough for me.
When ever i dont use live for a while and get back to it loading some well known audio files into it my first thought is.." nice program..wish its sum bus wouldnt fuck up the sound so much..." Just an emotion that is caused a by a tiny difference in sound ..
But that tiny bit sums easily up during a production. That brings me often in situations where i mix an in ableton produced track in Logic. and that is a lot of extra work.
I really want Live to replace Logic for me totaly.
Live 5 is a good step in this direction but its still not there.
However.. I use external mixing and direct running hardware again..
With this a production using Live can sound much better than a computer internal mix with logic .
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bensuthers
- Posts: 760
- Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 4:51 am
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serotoninsteve
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 2:27 pm
- Location: Luxembourg
Then I´ll give that a try and compare myself.3phase wrote:serotoninsteve wrote: The soundquality is on a professional level, not much people are complaining and a serious example of bad sound quality has still to be delivered. Timestreching has already been improved with L5, other basics could have been implemented but surely will in the future.
I realized that the common opinion is that everything is allwright...
But it dont helps the thing to talk the item better than it is on one hand and wishing super comfortable freeze functions on the other hand.
at least i personaly see a bigger benefit in improoving an essential detail than improoving comfort functions.
And i ve to admit that i talk about a detail. Some little differences in a A/B comparison with the same recording listened to on differnt programs.
But its allways little differences when we talk about soundquality.
I learned to trust my ears. Things often measure allwright but dont sound good.
An unwarped audiofile with unity gain should sound as it sounds and not flatned by Live. I just did a test again while writing this letter..
Just try it yourself... with a good monitor on a real listening level ( 85-90 db).
play a short cut from a goodsounding mix with depth and detail in live and in parralel in an good sample editor or just the quicktime player and listen A/B.. you can loop the unwarped audiofile with the follow actions.
Its important that the recording is not too long. A loop is better because you can listen to the same events over and over again..
first you might think it sounds the same...but concentrate on the details..the reverb tail on a percussiv hit for example...the colour of the attack in the bass region... make live a bit louder..it should sound better than...because our brain finds louder things usually sounding better...turn the level back to unity gain ..make the sample editor louder and have live a bit lower in volume...after doing that a few times i get a clear preference wich of the two audio players i want to be the louder one...The one with the finer highs, more depth and the better lowend..or call it the sweeter sounding one..
On my machine the quicktime player wins..listening in mono to a single speaker driven by a good little amp. Thats proove enough for me.
When ever i dont use live for a while and get back to it loading some well known audio files into it my first thought is.." nice program..wish its sum bus wouldnt fuck up the sound so much..." Just an emotion that is caused a by a tiny difference in sound ..
But that tiny bit sums easily up during a production. That brings me often in situations where i mix an in ableton produced track in Logic. and that is a lot of extra work.
I really want Live to replace Logic for me totaly.
Live 5 is a good step in this direction but its still not there.
However.. I use external mixing and direct running hardware again..
With this a production using Live can sound much better than a computer internal mix with logic .
Greetings
MBP 15,4" 2,53GHz C2D 4Gb late 2008 / Mac OS X.6.2 / Novation Remote 37SL Compact / TriggerFinger / FaderfoxDJ2 / Padkontrol / UC33 / SM Audio TB202 / Audiofire2 / Apogee Duet / Event OPAL's / HD25 /
hi 3phase
i was just curious and have decided to run that test u suggest
i've played one of my tracks (wich i know well) through nuendo, winamp, and live and i can't hear any diference.
my monitors are Event TR-8 and my soundcard a motu 828 mk1
everything sound trough the motu but diferent drivers are used.
maybe you have a problem with your drivers.
also i've learnt that your eyes and your brain can fool ur ears, I mean, how things look like, marketing stuff, design, etc... may influence.
you scared me a bit at first
cheers
i was just curious and have decided to run that test u suggest
i've played one of my tracks (wich i know well) through nuendo, winamp, and live and i can't hear any diference.
my monitors are Event TR-8 and my soundcard a motu 828 mk1
everything sound trough the motu but diferent drivers are used.
maybe you have a problem with your drivers.
also i've learnt that your eyes and your brain can fool ur ears, I mean, how things look like, marketing stuff, design, etc... may influence.
you scared me a bit at first
cheers
Last edited by envyro on Wed Aug 10, 2005 12:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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serotoninsteve
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 2:27 pm
- Location: Luxembourg
No, not so obvious as you perhaps think!bensuthers wrote:> And what happens if you tweak your warpmarkers in the audiotrack and switch
> back to your miditrack, is then the instruments audioengine timestretched?
no; the midi notes move.
Isn't that obvious?
If you play 4 1/4notes in a 1 bar clip, as ex with a Bd sound generated in operator, then your 4 sounds are played back at the speed as they where sounddesigned, you can only move the notes around but not change the evolution of the sounds themselves in time, therefore you need to tweak the synth.
If you record your straight clip into an audiotrack, you can alter the speed how a part of the clip is played back using the warpmarkers, and therefore change the sound itself in speed and added timestrech artefacts, perhaps used as sounddesign.
What you can´t change are the notes positions without affecting the sound in an audiotrack.
Imagine you have a warped to death clip with as ex. 32 warpmarkers.
By unfreezing back into an midiclip Live would have to create a new note for all of the 32 warpmarkers and create a new different sound related to each note, and that is simply impossible.
Greetings
MBP 15,4" 2,53GHz C2D 4Gb late 2008 / Mac OS X.6.2 / Novation Remote 37SL Compact / TriggerFinger / FaderfoxDJ2 / Padkontrol / UC33 / SM Audio TB202 / Audiofire2 / Apogee Duet / Event OPAL's / HD25 /