Ableton Forum

try reversing the roles of the a and b return channels. now when you turn both sends up full you will hear nothinng. it seems as if the one sample delay is only applied when sending "up the alphabet", not when sending "down the alphabet".

so if you want to chain 3 return channels in this way, send from the track to c, from c to b and from b to a. that way you can avoid the delay. at least that's what seems to be happening.

if you actually do want to create a feed back loop then sending back up the alphabet will result in a delay being introduced.

if you think about it, feedback loops must always include a delay so that the next input is taken from the last output - you cant input a sample that hasn't been calculated yet!

live seems to apply this delay whenever you send from one return channel to another with a higher letter - just in case you are going to create a feedback loop. it only needs to do this going up the alphabet, because any loop you might create must involve sends in both directions.

clear as mud.

it most likely does somthig similar when routing between tracks, but i havn't tried it.

clear as mud indeed! thanks nolus.

Cool tip... sounds very musically useful... will try tonight! Thanks.

hey nolus, i'm trying the automation trick by hoffman2k, wich is very cool by the way!!! and I would like to use this in the same way as the sends, using invert utilities for example. can you think of a setup to use??? I'm trying some stuff right now, but I havn't been able to accomplish this yet...

Hi Nixon,

I'm not sure what you're driving at. Can you explain in a bit more detail what you're trying to do?

hoffman2k posted a tip, where he routed all channels into one audio track. in this tracks are dummy clips (empty) with automation envelopes. When I use it this way though, I can't use the sends as we discussed (as virtual inserts). That's why I am trying to think of a way to rout it another way. Yesterday I wasn't able to figure this out yet...I was thinking of using your sends trick using one send knob on my channels, and another sends knob to send the audio to the extra audio track containing the envelopes (the audio should entirely go through the extra channel when i turn my second send all the way). Can You think of a way to do this?

Do you mean "Tutorial: Dummy clips for audio modulation" ?

Just located the post (had a long day at work...)

I'll have a play around and see if I can think of anything.

yes that's the one... thanks!

Ok here goes....

Starting from Hoffman2K's patch (the original one with 2 tracks)

Change "audio to" on track 1 to "master"

Put a phase inverter on return B

Turn up send A to max on return B

Change "audio to" on return B to "2 audio"

Add an extra phase inverter at the front of the fx chain on track 2 (this is to correct for the phase shift in the return channel)

now you can use send B on track 1 to bring in the effects chain as well as using clip envelopes on the dummy clips.

The reason for useing send B rather than send A is because the other way (as per my original post) creates a delay that cancels the highs when mixing between dry and fx.

Also in theory routing return A to the fx track and return B to master should sound exactly the same but I noticed a definte flatening of the sound just as the fx start to come in, and then it brightens up again as the fx start to take over.

Again some delay being introduced I suspect.

Is this the kind of thing you had in mind?

spot on again nolus! super nice!!! thanks a lot!

I now use 4 sends in ableton, a through d, with wich i use your "invert" trick. Here I assign 2 sends per channel, wich are B and D. Now I can use any effect or automation instantly and independently from any channel!!! This is so f%$%^ great nolus, thanks you so much!!

edit: and it's correct the sound flattens on a certain point when turning open the send...the send knob here doesn't exactly work like a dry/wet knob...but....if I turn the send open all the way I can still use the dry/wet from the effect itself... and this would not be possible for any channel without your trick!

ow and Nolus, ruling a nation is one thing, but ruling the sends....woooow

Das ist sehr kuuhl!!!

thnx for this tip

i have been using this for weeks. saving me a lot of trouble!
loving it!
i have a FEW set up actually.

i can quickly cut bewteen wet and dry - where wet is an an effect that doesnt have a W/D control (+ many others) without using the Xfader.
rules!!!

this tip hasnt really worked for me.....it doesnt fade from dry to wet , it fades from dry , to dry (at a slightly lower volume) and wet. .....am i doing something wrong ?

No, you are not. that's just the way this works. I just assign the send to a button, so I can toggle between 0% and 100 %...now the sound comes through the return channel, in wich my effects are turned off. now I just activate an effect or use the dry wet knob on the effect itself...

this way you still have the virtual inserts, just no overall volume controll over all the effects combined in the return...

ow, and one more thing, don't even think about changing the volume of the return channel itself, because the more it is offset to the other return channel, the more high frequency residue will be produced, and it is allmost impossible to get it right again, in wich case you will have to create the return again.

hope this helps!