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mr hankey

Post by mr hankey » Fri Mar 21, 2003 4:55 pm

geargasm wrote:I think a lot of people would be enlightened if they opened a history book rather than spouting off hippie rhetoric.
geargasm wrote:Give someone a hug. Do something nice.
sounds like a whole load of hippy shit to me.
geargasm wrote:How about all the Iraqi's that are going to or have already starved to death because Saddam has diverted aid to build presidential palaces?
nothing to do with the US led embargo of the last decade then?
geargasm wrote:I just saw protesters in San Francisco pull someone out of their car and beat the person while they were on the ground. Then it appeared as though someone was looking for something to steal in the car. People were taking pictures, no one was stopping it.
where you there? are is this edited tv images your refering to?
geargasm wrote:I would personally like to see anyone who hurts anyone in protest of this war suffer a long torturing death.
i agree, the cops have been getting way out of control.
geargasm wrote:I love y'all
i love you to.

yuval
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ok

Post by yuval » Sun Mar 23, 2003 1:32 pm

Hi all
Being an Israeli, and having my parents' house almost demolished by scuds in the 1st war (I was 16 at that time), I'm not too fund of Saddam.
I also know a lot about the situation of the Iraqi people.
I think that removing Saddam will be good for the world, and for the Iraqi people (Of which only 10% know how to read - because the money goes to Saddam's regim and army, not to education) . The only problem was that using the mass destruction weapons as an excuse is stupid.
Now I think that the war is not the issue. The question is what will happen afterwards, and will the world be able to recover Iraq and its people, and build a safe democracy there.
After that, it'll be time to straighten up things at my country, and finally stop the stupid occupation, which is hurting Israel more than it hurts the palestinians. As a soldier who spent time in jail refusing to go to the occupied territories to guard illegal sattlements, I'd be most happy if Bush will throw Sharon out next, or at least force him to remove our people from a land which is not ours.

Just imagine this - The US forces find chemical weapons at secret labs in Iraq.
They are spelled 'made in france'.

Yuval

monolake.

Re: ok

Post by monolake. » Sun Mar 23, 2003 9:31 pm

"Just imagine this - The US forces find chemical weapons at secret labs in Iraq.
They are spelled 'made in france'.

Yuval[/quote]"

Well, not that unlikely. This is what makes it all so incredibly sad. All industrial nations are making good business manufacturing and delivering weapons and this later on gives the reason why they think they need to use them. The whole logic of war is so ugly. I am not a communist and i do not see how one could escape the fact that so many things on this planet go wrong because one can earn money with it. But it makes me sick to realise that all comes down to economic power. Let it be oil, let it be the costs for a cleaner environment or for working conditions in 3rd world countries. And who is hitten most ? The ones which have the least to loose. This war is bad but it is not the desease it is just one of the more visible symptoms. I hope it will be over soon and i hope even more that there will be a democratic system installed which deserves that label.
Peace,

Robert

yon

Re: ok

Post by yon » Mon Mar 24, 2003 4:01 pm

yuval wrote:Hi all
I think that removing Saddam will be good for the world
Does the U.S. intend to improve the government of Iraq?

In practice, whether or not conditions improve depends a great deal on who replaces him. In my opinion, the stated intention of the U.S. is the replacement of him by a regime which is friendly to U.S. interests in the region. This policy is called "Rogue Removal". It was laid out in papers of C. Rice, and speeches by Bush, Rice, Cheney. That such policies actually have a good foundation in history lends the current situation a sense of deja-vu: As the British announced in the course of their 1917 march on Baghdad, "Our armies do not come into your cities and lands as conquerors or enemies, but as liberators".

The principle is simple. The leaders of the U.S. should not be allowed to decide when and where the government of a country (about which its citizens know very little) should be violently overthrown.

Beyond principles, in my opinion, the historical record in the case of the U.S. and other western nations is even much worse.

It seems to me that since 9/11 alone, the U.S. has funded a coup attempt in Venezuela, installed a puppet government in Afghanistan, and cracked down on basic human rights in the U.S.

In my opinion, the only rationale which is capable of drawing domestic and (marginal) international support to the U.S. policy of hegemony through regime change is the specter of international terrorism, the replacement for communism in the conservative U.S. post-coldwar zeitgeist. This is why the farce of the "discovery" of WMD (whose production means were sold and financed to Iraq in the late 1980s by U.S. firms, with the support of members of the U.S. administration: see e.g. http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/02/ ... 58580.html ) has been emphasized, actually even more than humanitarian concerns.

The foreign policy aims of the U.S., as embodied in its policy of waging pre-emptive war on those which oppose it, is wrong, and the invasion of Iraq should, in my opinion, be condemned by all good people.

That said, the position of people with opinions such as mine is awkward right now, because one hopes the same that those invading do -- that the end of the U.S./British war on Iraq comes quickly. Let us hope further that, against the evidence of humanitarian disaster which has typically followed such interventions, the outcome for the Iraqi people turns out better than history suggests it will be.

--Yon

(Sources: Sydney Morning Herald. The Independent (UK). The New York Times. The Washington Post. Foreign Policy (Journal). http://www.zmag.org )

yuval
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Post by yuval » Mon Mar 24, 2003 4:27 pm

Hi Yon/ Robert
How are you.
It's nice to read different opinions, everyone over here are so pro-war that it makes me sick.
I didn't say that this war is ok, or any war, for that matter. (I've been in Lebanon, Gaza and Hebron at the age of 18, and I've been shot, bombarded, thrown stones at. trust me - It sucks more that you could believe)
I've only said that removing Saddam and people in power like him will, eventually, make the world a better place. That man is, after all, responsible for millions (I'm not kidding here - check out the Iraq-Iran war, and how he got into power in the first place) of deaths.
I've also stated that my prime minister (Sharon) is not much better.
And hey - you're all definetly right.
Money makes the world go around.
And hey - it sucks.
Maybe because we're all not that rich.
And yes - Bush is out for revenge after 9.11 .
I believe I would be also.

It's nice to share ideas, though - I'll buy you guys a beer next time I'm in Berlin (Probably July)

Yuval

Alex Reynolds
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Post by Alex Reynolds » Mon Mar 24, 2003 4:51 pm

I don't agree with the shift in US foreign policy that says it is okay to launch preemptive strikes against sovereign nations. This move will legitimize actions in the future by Pakistan against India, China against Taiwan, etc. for unspecified or unclear reasons. ("They can attack without UN approval -- why can't we?" etc.)

On the other hand, the antiwar crowd of non-participant nations needs badly to understand that the reasons that they are largely against this war are not the same reasons their representative governments are against this war.

Namely, the countries of France, China, and Russia -- all veto-capable chairs on the UN Security Council -- have been played by Hussain as a hedge against the United States (and perhaps the UK to a lesser extent).

Economic ties between Iraq and these nations cannot be ignored. For example, the French petrochemical company TotalElf had many profitable oil and natural gas contracts lined up that will now for all intents and purposes evaporate with regime change. Chinese and Russian arms contractors have sold weaponry to Iraqi military -- the Russians continue to do so. The German company Siemens is a well-known vendor of questionable "dual-use" components. It is understood that the Euro currency grew considerable strength against the dollar when Hussain transferred billions of US petrodollars to a Euro-based equivalent.

These are all small examples. But the point is that this dictator has been in power for this long because he learned a valuable lesson from the Cold War: play your enemies against each other and reap the rewards as they step on one another to help you.

By establishing these ties, he did everything needed to stop a UN-sanctioned attack. There was no way European and Asian leaders would come to any agreement on dividing the spoils with Bush.

That's not the say that the US doesn't stand to profit immensely from installing a government that will be friendly to US economic and energy interests. Or that it hasn't profitted from installing and keeping Hussain in power the last two decades.

But antiwar protestors around the world seem to be missing the main point. This is not about racism, about a war against Islam: Iraq is (or was -- we'll see in the years ahead) perhaps one of the most secular countries in the region. Hussain killed plenty of Muslims during his eight-year war with Iran. Nor is this is about George II getting payback for his dad. These are distractions.

The decisions being made are based entirely upon macroeconomic political conflicts between the leaders of the United States and the rest of the industrialized world. The economic base of all these nations is around energy -- around finding it, around securing it. Get ready for more of this as China completes its transition from an agrarian society, by the way.

The antiwar movement is so fractured around its childish dislike -- its cartoonish caricatures -- of Bush that they'll never solidify to protest the real reasons their governments are either against or for the conflict. They don't have a cohesive message or understanding of the issues and, for that reason alone, [insert world leader] will get to do what he pleases in the decades ahead.

And that's just one of the many tragedies to come, sadly. Get ready for another century of cheaper, more efficient murder.

-Alex

noisetonepause
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Post by noisetonepause » Mon Mar 24, 2003 8:09 pm

I've seen the future, brother, it is murder...

/Niklas

Mbazzy
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I don't get it ...

Post by Mbazzy » Tue Mar 25, 2003 11:00 am

PLEASE explain to me ... how an American president can get impeached for getting a blowjob from an intern [which is an entire "private" matter ] ..but that an incompetent fool like G.W. Bush [and his hawk-like right wing cabinet of oily war mungers ] can go on putting the world on fire ..... without any telltale opposition ....PLEASE EXPLAIN THIS TO ME .....

... support this effort : http://www.votetoimpeach.org
http://www.mbazzy.tk -
Mbazzy's "The dysfunctional playground, a scrapbook a bout the shape of useless things" now OUT on Retinascan - http://www.retinascan.de

Guest

Post by Guest » Tue Mar 25, 2003 2:18 pm

Alex, you hit the nail on the head.

Guest

Re: I don't get it ...

Post by Guest » Tue Mar 25, 2003 3:08 pm

Mbazzy wrote:PLEASE explain to me ... how an American president can get impeached for getting a blowjob from an intern [which is an entire "private" matter ] ..but that an incompetent fool like G.W. Bush [and his hawk-like right wing cabinet of oily war mungers ] can go on putting the world on fire ..... without any telltale opposition ....PLEASE EXPLAIN THIS TO ME .....

... support this effort : http://www.votetoimpeach.org
It might be because bush has single handedly destroyed what was left of American democracy. It doesn't matter that he was NOT elected by the American people or that the majority of people in this country oppose the war.

The BOYN party is in full swing. You can't speak out against the president and his oil war or you'll be labeled un-patriotic and a potential hazard to home security.

yon

Post by yon » Tue Mar 25, 2003 5:52 pm

Alex Reynolds wrote:the reasons that they are largely against this war are not the same reasons their representative governments are against this war.
I believe it is understood by everyone I know that the economic interests of France, Germany, and Russia are the most important motivating factors behind their opposition to the U.S. This does not, in my opinion, discredit their opposition, nor does it discredit any of the arguments I made above.

Any implication that the millions who have taken to the streets in the U.S. and Europe are motivated by macroeconomics would certainly be dishonest.

The cost of the war (> 75 thousand million usd., according to Bush) is large compared to the annual value of all the oil produced by Iraq (LeMonde, Sat. March 22). It is likely to amount to 10 years of all oil sales (sales, not profits) in Iraq. Everyone knows that oil is an important motivation behind the U.S. invasion, but it is only the second most important factor.

The leading motivation behind the U.S. action here, as described very clearly and explicitly in the widely published Bush administration doctrine I mentioned above, is U.S. hegemony. Energy resources are an important factor in global politics, but this doctrine is based on deeper interests. Oil is, by itself, not sufficient to motivate this invasion.
It is understood that the Euro currency grew considerable strength against the dollar when Hussain transferred billions of US petrodollars to a Euro-based equivalent.
I don't mean to dwell on this point, but it is not remotely possible that a measurable part of the euro's rise against the dollar is attributable to Iraqi investments. They are far too small to have the claimed effect: The daily foreign exchange in dollars is measured in the trillions of usd. Iraqi foreign assets do not seem to amount to more than ten billion dollars, and its GNP is considerably less than 24 billion. (Iraq's foreign debt, now well over 100 billion dollars, has a much larger economic effect, because it is at least 10 times larger than its assets). Anyway, one certainly doesn't have to look hard for far more important influences on the value of the dollar.

In any case, I personally disagree with your suggestion that the power relationships between Iraq and the U.S. are remotely comparible in scale, by any reasonable measurement.
But the point is that this dictator has been in power for this long
No one anywhere doubts that he's a despicable dictator. We simply doubt the wisdom of allowing the U.S. to invade Iraq in order to install another one; first, because the deaths which will result do not seem to be worth the exchange, and second, out of the principle that the U.S. should not be allowed to invade, overthrow countries, and install permanent military presences there. The U.S. record on foreign aggression is admittedly not comparible to those of Pakistan or India, which you mentioned. It is, in my opinion, by any reasonable measurement, much worse.
This is not about racism,
True. By saying this, I don't mean to be cynical, but, in my opinion, the racist argument is based on fear, and is reserved for propaganda within the U.S. and Britain. During the speeches on Iraq given by Mr. Bush in the early part of this year, it was stunning to hear him refer to of the Sept. 11th attacks more frequently than he did to Iraq itself. In my opinion, the only credible connection between these two issues is racist. Everyone I have heard weigh in on the issue agrees that the likelihood of attacks against the domestic U.S. will be increased by the expanded U.S. military presence in the region which will follow.
The antiwar movement is..
The antiwar movement is stronger than it has been since the Vietnam war. In other times, this might be enough to lend one hope. However, the leaders of the U.S. and Britain have shown as little regard for the opinion of people at home and abroad as they have shown for humanity in general. Consequently, the situation is rather bleak.

Kind regards,
Yon

(Sources: ForEx, Le Monde, The Independent (UK), http://www.zmag.org )

atom_b
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Post by atom_b » Tue Mar 25, 2003 7:27 pm

I would like to throw something in at this point. And let me state that it is more important for people being citizens of the U.S. than anyone else. Several issues seem to be more obvious to someone not looking at himself as part of this nation or not being responsible in terms of its society:

- People of the U.S. know nothing about what war is alike. Whenever there have been returning soldiers (be it in WW II, be it Korea, be it Vietnam) reporting what it is like they have been considered ill or cowards.

- People of the U.S. know nothing about the open wounds and scars war does leave long time after it is finished. Ground Zero isn't even a glimpse of what war is like in your country.

- The majority of people in the U.S. aren't very well informed about world politics, but even less about politics in foreign countries and the influence of U.S. foreign politics. Stating that Iraqe's health system is miserable because of Saddam building palaces is just a minor out of a million malinformed statements. (But this is more or less a phenomenon within all western industrialised countries).

- During the Reagan era, a strong right wing movement gained power, that since then is constantly attacking U.S. society. G.W. Bush and his father as well as Richard Perle, Colin Fitzwater, to name just a few, are protagonists of this movement. The PNAC, one of the thinktanks of the movement, in 2000 wished for a sort of 'Pearl Harbour' as a catalysator for their plans to restructure U.S. society and the world. September 11 was what they had been phantasizing.
- You don't know what the PNAC is, who is part of it and what they fight for? Inform yourself, this is exactly what I was talking about - you *should* know...

- So if anyone ever wondered why the hell they want this war, look at what the U.S. senate and congress have been doing in the past years and are doing right now! The U.S.A. are not at war because of their love for the people of Iraque - and not because they love U.S. society - not the way it is today! As some might already have guessed too, it is also not because of oil or weapons or terrorism. Oil and economics are no good points for going for war (even though in case of Afghanistan there was some point to make by having to finish a pipeline project, but that's nothing to gain too much from in an economical sense).

I, for one, don't think that this rightist movement will gain world power the way its protagonists desire, there is other forces on this planet that won't allow them to (mostly because of their own national interests). But they for sure are capable of bringing more harm to people all over the world than anytime seen before - while propagating freedom.

The people of the U.S. stand in first line when it comes to fight this movement. And if it is only because else they might face themselves living in a society, they no longer feel comfortable with... When it all comes down, it is your civil rights that this is all about.

Respect and Peace to you all!
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Alex Reynolds
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Post by Alex Reynolds » Wed Mar 26, 2003 4:42 am

yon wrote:I believe it is understood by everyone I know that the economic interests of France, Germany, and Russia are the most important motivating factors behind their opposition to the U.S. This does not, in my opinion, discredit their opposition...Any implication that the millions who have taken to the streets in the U.S. and Europe are motivated by macroeconomics would certainly be dishonest.
I respectfully disagree. It seems Europeans are protesting Bush more than the behavior of their own respective governments. I feel that something is wrong with this, and perhaps I am wrong entirely, but perhaps I can't put it into words very well. Suffice it to say that I don't see that Chirac and Schroeder et al have much credibility on issues of morality any more than Bush.
yon wrote:The leading motivation behind the U.S. action here, as described very clearly and explicitly in the widely published Bush administration doctrine I mentioned above, is U.S. hegemony. Energy resources are an important factor in global politics, but this doctrine is based on deeper interests. Oil is, by itself, not sufficient to motivate this invasion.
What about Venezuela? If the Bush administration was simply about territorial and cultural conquest, there are plenty of weak banana republics to pick on without all this oil floating about.
yon wrote:In any case, I personally disagree with your suggestion that the power relationships between Iraq and the U.S. are remotely comparible in scale, by any reasonable measurement.
Hussein has played politicians of various critical nations against each other, has amassed WMDs that it is likely are still around, and by doing so has made a conflict with him potentially dangerous and certainly fraught with risk. His country sits atop the world's second largest source of untapped crude oil. Along with this, his cruelty and cunning help level the playing field with any rival. The man has read up on his Machiavelli and Sun Tzu. Asymmetric warfare.
yon wrote:No one anywhere doubts that he's a despicable dictator. We simply doubt the wisdom of allowing the U.S. to invade Iraq in order to install another one
Speculation which may not bear out either way. It is possible a stable, relatively free democracy could evolve in Iraq that has a freer market -- certainly relative to any of the monarchies or dictatorships that surround it.

After a generation of Iraqis live through economic well-being and interdependencies with other countries, they would have much more to lose from their kids becoming terrorists and suicide bombers.

Perhaps one example, but hindsight shows things seem to have largely worked out for Germany, in the end. Certainly, Germany didn't have much of a reputation for democracy until after the Marshall Plan provided currency reform and rebuilding of infrastructure. Kaiser Wilhelm II was a militaristic nationalist -- certainly no friend of post-WW I democratic Germany. (There seem eerie parallels with him and George II -- with the history that follows, I sure hope not.)

After reunification, there was (and is still to a lesser degree) a sense from former East Germans that they were disenfranchised from economic progress. There was and is a stronger neo-Nazi presence there from people who believe that they don't have much of a future in a reunified Germany. It's easy to blame Turks, whomever...

My point is that where there is economic freedom, there is -- to a large extent -- a sense that you can live and bring up your children in an environment of hope and possibility.

At this time, most Middle Easterners, inside and outside Iraq, do not live in such conditions. This is why their masses hate caucasians -- the rulers of Europe and the US create and subsidize autocracies in the Middle East.

And it is equally as convenient for leaders in the Middle East to use Americans as targets of hatred, to distract their masses from their miserable state. Hussein became a hero of the people because he launched a few Scuds into Israel during Gulf War I. Recent Egyptian and Iranian papers show a front page picture of Bush and an Apache helicopter with the caption "Finally Getting Slapped In The Face". Meanwhile, it's business as usual in these countries: secret police, torture, disappearances.

Bush has commited the US -- for better or worse -- to an irreversable course of action. There is little to no hope of turning back.

Its citizens now have the obligation to make sure the promises of free elections and prosperity are followed through upon -- here and in Afghanistan. They also have the obligation to remove this clown in '04 elections. The antiwar protestors cannot simply let up once the war is over. The alternative is even worse misery for us all.
yon wrote:...By saying this, I don't mean to be cynical, but, in my opinion, the racist argument is based on fear, and is reserved for propaganda within the U.S. and Britain.
Bush is also making the war palatable to waffling left-wingers by casting it as one of liberation. How can a racist want to free people he hates? Doesn't make sense. But propaganda == marketing. So he's just hitting various demographics with whatever they want to hear. How can an antiwar movement fight a moving target? (Especially when the movement itself keeps jumping from one barely-relevant tangent to another?)

I really, truly doubt this is an issue of Christians going after Muslims. It's just convenient for him to make that connection in the press because it will garner him support with people too ignorant to educate themselves otherwise.

I guess this could be called racism-by-proxy but I think its more just that the Iraqis are sitting atop something that we need to fill our gas tanks with, and they happen, sadly, to have olive skin like the Saudi Flying Circus. It's a pretty bland and tasteless flavor of racism.

If Bush and Friends had an apocalyptic fantasy of wiping out non-Christians, launching a nuclear device upon Mecca during Hajj would probably do the trick. Since it hasn't happened already, post-9/11, and as it's not happening any time soon (I hope) I'm inclined to think that it's really just about the oil.
yon wrote:The antiwar movement is stronger than it has been since the Vietnam war. In other times, this might be enough to lend one hope. However, the leaders of the U.S. and Britain have shown as little regard for the opinion of people at home and abroad as they have shown for humanity in general. Consequently, the situation is rather bleak.
On the contrary: these are exciting times. I have lived in the US for about 16 years and I haven't seen people as interested in politics and issues as they are now. Whatever the outcome, whatever your opinion, more people are drawn into a dialog about what is going on. This can only mean good things in the long run.

Best,
Alex

ryansupak

Post by ryansupak » Wed Mar 26, 2003 5:10 am

this link has proved to be a valuable reference during these times of vigorous political debate..

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

borg
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Post by borg » Thu Mar 27, 2003 11:13 am

people are people, not that different than any other animal (or plant). we all want the best for ourself and (maybe) the closest to us.
the strongest/'smarter' ones get the most, and leave the bits to the weaker kind. the most healthy lions eat the best part of the zebra, then the rest is for the not so popular part of the group. what's left after they've eaten is for hyena's and vultures.
if you think 'hey, i'm not like that. i'm one of the herbivores'. then think again... plants live too. you might think you want the best for all, but where do your computer parts and nike sneakers come from?
and so on and on and on... even some plants feed on other plants.

this sounds really simple minded, but hey, that's just us, humans.
there's always the rare exception who gives away all his personal belongings and devotes his life to the welfare of others, but how many ghandies, mother theresa's and the likes are there?
no, to some degree, we're all pretty selfish and unable to think about the long term consequences.

yes, i'm against the war.
yes, IF some of the reports coming from western news agencies is correct, saddam must be overthrown (remember, most of the american press is controlled by jewish people. sorry if i offended israeli like yuval that oppose to sharon's way).
yes, also european countries just act out of self interest.

it has become such a mess...


and people, stop talking about bush this and bush that... he's just a spokesman, the face of an elite aiming at world domination. these people were looking for a fool whining 'can i be president, can i, can i, pwetty please???'
atom_b mentioned it before, here's the link for people too lazy to look for themselves:

http://www.newamericancentury.org/index.html

look at the statement of principles and who signed it. you'll find some names playing major roles in the current tragi-comedy.
not even a sign of trying to be subtle.

george orwell's book should have been titled '2004'.


i might be wrong... of course.

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