Ableton Forum

Posted: **Mon Apr 03, 2006 6:45 am**

knotkranky wrote:Ok guys, thanx for bearing with me.

Now wait a minute, I think you have a legitimate gripe. The Abes did promise the upgrade from version 4.1.4 by March(yes- it's obvious that the initial ver.5's should have been betas). I too have been patiently waiting for the release of 5.2. The only reason I haven't gone ballistic yet is because I sense that the Abes wanna make positively sure that this is the definitive version of Live 5- as they quickly have to turn their attention to version 6. But, at the same time they run the risk of having people like me think it's best to wait for the July release of ver.6, and save some money... but then... that will prolly get pushed back as well, so I don't know.

Posted: **Mon Apr 03, 2006 7:39 am**

knotkranky wrote:
RopeyPunter wrote:
knotkranky wrote: Ah, so, .0 .01 .02 were still considered beta's?
man, you posed the question and I replied, what more do you want ? I'm not about to carry your flag. unless you are clinicaly stupid I'm not about to devlop what I said any further. You know exactly what I mean. go ahead and trash-talk ableton, dont be such a worm you try and lure others to do the same any more then they want to of their own accord.

Ya know you're right and I'm tired. I bummed out, thats all. I just didn't get the experience I invested in, i;m very p.o'd about it this month because 5 has been such a mind fuk for a year now. I've been on since v3. 4 in 9 was pretty snappy though but it didn't pretend. 5 never lived up to what they promised, but boy was i hyped on it. I suspect 6 won't be either, though I would love to eat everyone of my words. They put and advertised a feature set to run along side the other big apps, damn it. High hopes? Marketing rape!! They never came close and I dropped thousand$ specifically for a hot Live station. I got 5k in hardware dedicated to only Live!!. Now what! glitches, no solid timing, FUK!. What happened? This bitching is the disappointment of having to drop the hopes of pulling some "real" sessions out of it. Not to mention the very difficult and time consuming commitment of becoming fluid in a new app. FUK!!! so I guess I want to pull a little of Ableton brass down with me while I release this last angst ridden sigh of realization. The Lay and Skilling of Abe's extended us out on their trip a mile, an then some. I'm 44 and have had my face in computers, apps and studios for 18 years and I've never seen a company build itself up so well, while dropping so hard on it's customers. Never ever like this. That's why I trip on those dudes because they stole the show from the real cats and pile drived it into their pockets. That is no fantasy, that's how it works. It's as old as time. This is what take overs are all about. I'm pissed at those mo fo's. The only trouble is I can't go any further without cracking some heads that don't deserve it. That hurts and has chilled me out now. Live will be relegated to an app thats more like a garageband on steroids for me. A little writers app i suppose. It's a lap top app. Promising all that DAW functionality is sickening. Sickening!. And now the customers "make and buy" the program. Genius!. Ableton, you owe me. Ok, well i'll chill now cause there's no where to go with this now and I don't want to piss off you honest people. I will take a few jabs at Abes every once in a while until they make good though. You know how they avoid accountability? They never make a peep.

Ok guys, thanx for bearing with me.

Damn dude. It's sucks because there are people on here that love it. I just want to know what kind of glitches you get and what timing issues you have. I run Live 5 on the latest version of OS X along with a mbox and everything is pretty smooth for me. There a few people around so. cal that might be able to help you out if it's personal assistance you want.

Posted: **Mon Apr 03, 2006 8:52 am**

Anubis wrote:
knotkranky wrote:Ok guys, thanx for bearing with me.
Now wait a minute, I think you have a legitimate gripe. The Abes did promise the upgrade from version 4.1.4 by March(yes- it's obvious that the initial ver.5's should have been betas). I too have been patiently waiting for the release of 5.2. The only reason I haven't gone ballistic yet is because I sense that the Abes wanna make positively sure that this is the definitive version of Live 5- as they quickly have to turn their attention to version 6. But, at the same time they run the risk of having people like me think it's best to wait for the July release of ver.6, and save some money... but then... that will prolly get pushed back as well, so I don't know.

Thanx brother, they are certainly in a tenuous position to nail two versions of software. 5.2 just to make good and 6 for a new gen. This is quite a pickle and I hope they feel the swell of patient believers pressing up against the dam. Not many will be rush buyers and I will wait in the rafters myself. I hope they can set us free on it soon. Cheers

Posted: **Mon Apr 03, 2006 8:56 am**

ishimaru wrote:
knotkranky wrote:
RopeyPunter wrote: man, you posed the question and I replied, what more do you want ? I'm not about to carry your flag. unless you are clinicaly stupid I'm not about to devlop what I said any further. You know exactly what I mean. go ahead and trash-talk ableton, dont be such a worm you try and lure others to do the same any more then they want to of their own accord.

Ya know you're right and I'm tired. I bummed out, thats all. I just didn't get the experience I invested in, i;m very p.o'd about it this month because 5 has been such a mind fuk for a year now. I've been on since v3. 4 in 9 was pretty snappy though but it didn't pretend. 5 never lived up to what they promised, but boy was i hyped on it. I suspect 6 won't be either, though I would love to eat everyone of my words. They put and advertised a feature set to run along side the other big apps, damn it. High hopes? Marketing rape!! They never came close and I dropped thousand$ specifically for a hot Live station. I got 5k in hardware dedicated to only Live!!. Now what! glitches, no solid timing, FUK!. What happened? This bitching is the disappointment of having to drop the hopes of pulling some "real" sessions out of it. Not to mention the very difficult and time consuming commitment of becoming fluid in a new app. FUK!!! so I guess I want to pull a little of Ableton brass down with me while I release this last angst ridden sigh of realization. The Lay and Skilling of Abe's extended us out on their trip a mile, an then some. I'm 44 and have had my face in computers, apps and studios for 18 years and I've never seen a company build itself up so well, while dropping so hard on it's customers. Never ever like this. That's why I trip on those dudes because they stole the show from the real cats and pile drived it into their pockets. That is no fantasy, that's how it works. It's as old as time. This is what take overs are all about. I'm pissed at those mo fo's. The only trouble is I can't go any further without cracking some heads that don't deserve it. That hurts and has chilled me out now. Live will be relegated to an app thats more like a garageband on steroids for me. A little writers app i suppose. It's a lap top app. Promising all that DAW functionality is sickening. Sickening!. And now the customers "make and buy" the program. Genius!. Ableton, you owe me. Ok, well i'll chill now cause there's no where to go with this now and I don't want to piss off you honest people. I will take a few jabs at Abes every once in a while until they make good though. You know how they avoid accountability? They never make a peep.

Ok guys, thanx for bearing with me.
Damn dude. It's sucks because there are people on here that love it. I just want to know what kind of glitches you get and what timing issues you have. I run Live 5 on the latest version of OS X along with a mbox and everything is pretty smooth for me. There a few people around so. cal that might be able to help you out if it's personal assistance you want.

Ok thanx, can you get up to at least 32 tracks of audio 32 channels of midi, with a couple of sound plugs? This should be child's play on my G5. If you are getting that then we are about to be friends my friend. Thanks for the SoCal tip. I may take you up on that.

I use the G5's optical sound buss. I can hear the midi timing shift around a bit, subtle glitches and even teeny tiny timing skip errors in the audio every once in a while. It can be around one in every 20 mins to more depending on the load i put on it, which isn't that much at all. Someone might say to me, Man! that ain't that bad what's your problem. It's huge if you are working on a clients music in front of them. Or if there is a listen down with a third party that is the clients meal ticket!

Can I ask you about you sessions. Track counts plugs, verbs etc?

In the near future i'm looking to push it a little harder than most. It needs to be able to be solid on a session with clients that are tough or that i have never met and want to impress. It should be just as tight as PT and Logic and I don't need their full track counts. sometimes i'm sitting in front of an SSL and I need at least 16 but want 24+ tracks of RME i/o. Live has to move beyond self production and be a trusted workhorse like the other apps in all production environments, if they insist on running with those apps. Live is most definitely a DAW. The advertised feature set says this is so. What's most annoying to me is that sometimes your not sure if you heard a noise or not. complete trust is very important.

Thanx again

Posted: **Mon Apr 03, 2006 10:09 am**

knotkranky wrote:
ishimaru wrote:
knotkranky wrote:
Ya know you're right and I'm tired. I bummed out, thats all. I just didn't get the experience I invested in, i;m very p.o'd about it this month because 5 has been such a mind fuk for a year now. I've been on since v3. 4 in 9 was pretty snappy though but it didn't pretend. 5 never lived up to what they promised, but boy was i hyped on it. I suspect 6 won't be either, though I would love to eat everyone of my words. They put and advertised a feature set to run along side the other big apps, damn it. High hopes? Marketing rape!! They never came close and I dropped thousand$ specifically for a hot Live station. I got 5k in hardware dedicated to only Live!!. Now what! glitches, no solid timing, FUK!. What happened? This bitching is the disappointment of having to drop the hopes of pulling some "real" sessions out of it. Not to mention the very difficult and time consuming commitment of becoming fluid in a new app. FUK!!! so I guess I want to pull a little of Ableton brass down with me while I release this last angst ridden sigh of realization. The Lay and Skilling of Abe's extended us out on their trip a mile, an then some. I'm 44 and have had my face in computers, apps and studios for 18 years and I've never seen a company build itself up so well, while dropping so hard on it's customers. Never ever like this. That's why I trip on those dudes because they stole the show from the real cats and pile drived it into their pockets. That is no fantasy, that's how it works. It's as old as time. This is what take overs are all about. I'm pissed at those mo fo's. The only trouble is I can't go any further without cracking some heads that don't deserve it. That hurts and has chilled me out now. Live will be relegated to an app thats more like a garageband on steroids for me. A little writers app i suppose. It's a lap top app. Promising all that DAW functionality is sickening. Sickening!. And now the customers "make and buy" the program. Genius!. Ableton, you owe me. Ok, well i'll chill now cause there's no where to go with this now and I don't want to piss off you honest people. I will take a few jabs at Abes every once in a while until they make good though. You know how they avoid accountability? They never make a peep.

Ok guys, thanx for bearing with me.
Damn dude. It's sucks because there are people on here that love it. I just want to know what kind of glitches you get and what timing issues you have. I run Live 5 on the latest version of OS X along with a mbox and everything is pretty smooth for me. There a few people around so. cal that might be able to help you out if it's personal assistance you want.

Ok thanx, can you get up to at least 32 tracks of audio 32 channels of midi, with a couple of sound plugs? This should be child's play on my G5. If you are getting that then we are about to be friends my friend. Thanks for the SoCal tip. I may take you up on that.

I use the G5's optical sound buss. I can hear the midi timing shift around a bit, subtle glitches and even teeny tiny timing skip errors in the audio every once in a while. It can be around one in every 20 mins to more depending on the load i put on it, which isn't that much at all. Someone might say to me, Man! that ain't that bad what's your problem. It's huge if you are working on a clients music in front of them. Or if there is a listen down with a third party that is the clients meal ticket!

Can I ask you about you sessions. Track counts plugs, verbs etc?

In the near future i'm looking to push it a little harder than most. It needs to be able to be solid on a session with clients that are tough or that i have never met and want to impress. It should be just as tight as PT and Logic and I don't need their full track counts. sometimes i'm sitting in front of an SSL and I need at least 16 but want 24+ tracks of RME i/o. Live has to move beyond self production and be a trusted workhorse like the other apps in all production environments, if they insist on running with those apps. Live is most definitely a DAW. The advertised feature set says this is so. What's most annoying to me is that sometimes your not sure if you heard a noise or not. complete trust is very important.

Thanx again

Hey finally you're getting the picture how this forum works. You share information and we share some back and so on and so forth...

1) Live requires a little bit more management to get the most out of it. Set your clips to RAM mode and they will tax your drive less. Other DAW's do this as neccessary, but Live lets you choose what clips and elements are the most important to your session and let you choose how to balance the load between your hard drive and available memory.

2) Live doesnt have multiprocessor support whereas all the other DAW's do and this would be giving you conflicting ideas on what your system can handle.

3) You state that you have TDM and I assume that you are used to Logic and Pro Tools utilising the dsp in pro tools which are used for not just effects, but also the voices and mix engine too, this isn't really fair on Live as a comparison because its a native host.

4) Live is not advertised as a DAW.. it's advertised as a complete music solution. To me personally that implies a production environment as opposed to an editing, processing and mixing environment.

5) Live's engine is designed so that you can tweak stuff or add/remove plugins in realtime whereas other DAW's do more looking ahead and process stuff before it gets to the engine whereas Live has to do it right there and then.

6) G5 Macs are way slower than PC's from similar release period and Live is well known to not be G3/G4/G5 friendly. Also it does not contain the Altivec code enhancements which a lot of other Gx apps used to get better performance on older apples, the experience you are getting is not on-par with much of the computing world.

These points are not "FACTS" theyre just my personal observations and probably have room for clarification, but you should most definately take them into consideration to get a better understanding of what your purchase is capable of.

Posted: **Mon Apr 03, 2006 4:30 pm**

sweetjesus wrote:

Hey finally you're getting the picture how this forum works. You share information and we share some back and so on and so forth...

O..M..G. I can,t begin to express the amount of restraint I am showing right now. But me thinks you are trying to antagonize me with the opener. Ok, now let's see if you're getting the picture. Understand I am sincere but straight forward.

1) Live requires a little bit more management to get the most out of it. Set your clips to RAM mode and they will tax your drive less. Other DAW's do this as neccessary, but Live lets you choose what clips and elements are the most important to your session and let you choose how to balance the load between your hard drive and available memory.

Why would I have not tried everything. You treat me like a newb. I use raptors. Anyway, Live doesn't let you chose much, it makes you chose. I smell red herring.

2) Live doesnt have multiprocessor support whereas all the other DAW's do and this would be giving you conflicting ideas on what your system can handle.

Damn, you're good. You almost make it sound like a good thing. #2 sums up a lot about apologists for many of us.

3) You state that you have TDM and I assume that you are used to Logic and Pro Tools utilising the dsp in pro tools which are used for not just effects, but also the voices and mix engine too, this isn't really fair on Live as a comparison because its a native host.

I understand that distinction and I was referring to all the apps as native. I have done successful sessions in PT le and we all know Logic is wow.

4) Live is not advertised as a DAW.. it's advertised as a complete music solution. To me personally that implies a production environment as opposed to an editing, processing and mixing environment.

I beg to differ and let's keep your personal views out of it. I like you, but just biz ok. Call it a rose if you like and check out the feature set and overviews.

5) Live's engine is designed so that you can tweak stuff or add/remove plugins in realtime whereas other DAW's do more looking ahead and process stuff before it gets to the engine whereas Live has to do it right there and then.

Ok, some apps must stop to enable a plugin. Anyway, why suck all that dsp for a dj feature. It would be cool though, to turn those buffers off if you're not a dj.

"Live gets less Live the more you need it to be Live"

6) G5 Macs are way slower than PC's from similar release period and Live is well known to not be G3/G4/G5 friendly. Also it does not contain the Altivec code enhancements which a lot of other Gx apps used to get better performance on older apples, the experience you are getting is not on-par with much of the computing world.

This should have been your first point, top of the list. A 2.5ghz G5 with a raptor sys drive is way slower than which PC's? A Mac G3 is advertised with the feature set. So tell us, what are the minimum requirements?

These points are not "FACTS" theyre just my personal observations and probably have room for clarification, but you should most definately take them into consideration to get a better understanding of what your purchase is capable of

Thank you, but I am only interested in facts. Anyway, I don't need a better understanding of the capabilities of my purchase. I'm not sure if you are referring to my G5 or Live.

You and others keep pounding away that I don't understand. It's patronizing, but I do know you don't understand where i'm coming from either and that's cool. Please sweetjesus, With all do respect, no more conjecture. I just can't reply to another post like that. thanx dude.

Posted: **Mon Apr 03, 2006 5:08 pm**

just leave him alone.

he already thinks he knows everything.

I'm not sure whether or not to believe his claim of being 44 years old with 18 years of experience. On one hand, it's hard to believe someone of that age could be so childish, on the other, it does usually take a couple decades to get so hardheaded and inflexable.

.lm.

Posted: **Mon Apr 03, 2006 5:15 pm**

Posted: **Mon Apr 03, 2006 5:21 pm**

hambone1 wrote:

err- no dagger totin' leprechauns with inverted chickens?

edit- "the release is the beta, and the beta is the release..."
say it slowly and calmly, and it becomes a zen-like mantra...
kinda soothing, like.

Posted: **Mon Apr 03, 2006 11:09 pm**

You got problems, and they aren't only with Live...I've been onboard since Live 2. Is it perfect? No. Is it the best thing I've ever used since Studio Vision? Yes.

I'm no pro user but the thing is as solid as can be for me (2GHz P4 Windows 2000 system). If you've really been into computers for 18 years and never had trouble I can't image what apps you've been using. When I used Mac, I can't tell you the hours I wasted with crashes, late upgrades, debugging and basically crap software from (the two worst offenders that come to mind) Peak and Canvas. And then Opcode got bought and killed off by Gibson, leaving Vision and Galaxy users at the end of their upgrade rope.

Compared to the experiences I had with those, Live, Reason, Sonar are just like wet dreams.

I still run Sonar for certain kinds of MIDI + audio apps that it's more suited for. But 95% of the time it's Live 5 baby. Live is not all things to all people, for instance it's really not the app to do mastering in, you can't have multiple time signatures, etc.

It's unfortunate you're frustrated with it after spending $$$ but it seems the vast majority of even Mac users are delighted with it...

I don't even fool with the betas. When they have a point release, I'll check out what it will do for me and decide then. For instance, I'm done upgrading Reason since nothing since 2.5 they've added is anything I use.

r.

Posted: **Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:11 am**

rasputin wrote:You got problems, and they aren't only with Live...I've been onboard since Live 2. Is it perfect? No. Is it the best thing I've ever used since Studio Vision? Yes.

I'm no pro user but the thing is as solid as can be for me (2GHz P4 Windows 2000 system). If you've really been into computers for 18 years and never had trouble I can't image what apps you've been using. When I used Mac, I can't tell you the hours I wasted with crashes, late upgrades, debugging and basically crap software from (the two worst offenders that come to mind) Peak and Canvas. And then Opcode got bought and killed off by Gibson, leaving Vision and Galaxy users at the end of their upgrade rope.

Compared to the experiences I had with those, Live, Reason, Sonar are just like wet dreams.

I still run Sonar for certain kinds of MIDI + audio apps that it's more suited for. But 95% of the time it's Live 5 baby. Live is not all things to all people, for instance it's really not the app to do mastering in, you can't have multiple time signatures, etc.

It's unfortunate you're frustrated with it after spending $$$ but it seems the vast majority of even Mac users are delighted with it...

I don't even fool with the betas. When they have a point release, I'll check out what it will do for me and decide then. For instance, I'm done upgrading Reason since nothing since 2.5 they've added is anything I use.

r.

Yeah I used Studio Vision for a long time and got a familiar flow feel on it too. That got messed up for sure. Maybe I have some association problems with that! It's a 5 problem for me. Mac isn't that much of a mystery for PT, Logic, SX but I don't disagree with you.

My other anger at Abes (gibson?) is the fact they really stretched the the abilities factor with a feature set that is no where near of being met. They bit off a lot and hoped for the best at best. Dishonest and calculated.

I'm not so much into computers as that I am into music. Mac OS is where i have always lived for myself. In my early studio life, console automation was Flying Faders on Windows or Idris which was command line only control for early GML auto on Neve's and Focusrite. both PC. GML switched that to mac in the early 90's. SSL is proprietary but E and G series were command line oriented to. Lots of memorizing inane commands. I had an Atari 1040 that was so freakin tight!! Like an MPC.

Yeah man, I can't stand and have little patience after years of app maintenance on macs too. I almost got a P4 but the thought of getting tight on the OS after all the above was too much. OSX is good though. I like all my gear out of my way. I don't like to futs around. I go straight for music on what I flow on. PT HD is really sweet. But the Live method is brilliant, though my music flow can stutter on it as I put simple loads on. My favorite time is the first hour, then both of us throw fits. Though Live throws subtle fits.

Sad to hear Peak sucks I've been looking at 5pro. What sucks about it? The Opcode mess really was a bummer for me too. Abandoned and sucked dry we were. I may have to consider a zippy PC for LIve but we got intel now and I will wait on that. The recording biz in L.A. to a major hit as you know. 02 for me. So dough is tight. Just more money to get this app going. I don't mess with betas either. Glad you liked my rant, thanx for your post.

Posted: **Tue Apr 04, 2006 1:52 am**

hey knotkranky, 5k dedicated to live? if you've got problems with live in your pro studio, why not stick with pt?

Posted: **Tue Apr 04, 2006 5:29 am**

unusable wrote:hey knotkranky, 5k dedicated to live? if you've got problems with live in your pro studio, why not stick with pt?

That's where i'm at right now of course. But Live is a fantastic creative method. Just great really. If 6 was nothing more than 5.2 that met the feature set list with balls and overhead, the studio production world would really freak on it. Most don't know about it because it farts out too quick, so the word doesn't travel. Most hip hop producers would try it, then toss it because they and me don't fuss with gear. We don't want to baby our tools. Work now, go the distance or get out of my session, that's it. The best creativity comes when you can be a brut to your gear and only think music. Pro tools is my bitch. It does all my audio instructions, lets me freak stuff without thought and handles most programing instructions without fail. Live could do that on the creative front and keep audio tight too. If it had mad tracks and plugs, stayed snappy and tight in big sessions, Ableton could take over the world and set our minds free to musical thought and not cpu management. Hell, just give me 32 channels that never fail rather than unlimited channels of glitchy tracks. This can happen, but only if we get in their grill hard, because I really don't think they know what to do with it.

Posted: **Tue Apr 04, 2006 5:39 am**

knotkranky wrote:We don't want to baby our tools. Work now, go the distance or get out of my session, that's it. The best creativity comes when you can be a brut to your gear and only think music.

That's the single best reason to go to a hardware only studio. Where you in the game back in the hardware only days? I wasn't for real, but I was once a HW devotee because I hate computers.

Your computer is part of your rig, there was a thread on 'what's the worst piece of gear you've ever owned', my answer was a computer, it still is and always will be. A major part of where music production is today is dealing with computers. I would bet that any PRO studio engineer knows computers or has someone on a VERY short leash who does.

There comes a point where you have to workaround and just get the job done, computers will always have their limitations, we will always push them to it.

Posted: **Tue Apr 04, 2006 6:48 am**

DeadlyKungFu wrote:
knotkranky wrote:We don't want to baby our tools. Work now, go the distance or get out of my session, that's it. The best creativity comes when you can be a brut to your gear and only think music.
That's the single best reason to go to a hardware only studio. Where you in the game back in the hardware only days? I wasn't for real, but I was once a HW devotee because I hate computers.

Your computer is part of your rig, there was a thread on 'what's the worst piece of gear you've ever owned', my answer was a computer, it still is and always will be. A major part of where music production is today is dealing with computers. I would bet that any PRO studio engineer knows computers or has someone on a VERY short leash who does.

There comes a point where you have to workaround and just get the job done, computers will always have their limitations, we will always push them to it.

yeah man. Your brain in front of the how. I was in the HW only days for sure. I was right in the middle of the big switch to PT too. I saw Sound Tools in I think 92' It was 4 tracks! drop a snare, vocal or guitar in it, edit, back to 2". In 97' most were beginning to leave their multi's in PT, By 98' i was landing me some of the greatest gigs a engineer could want simply because the old engineer guard skipped town because the computer was too strange to them. Some started to hire PT dudes but then a bunch of us rushed into the vacuum and pushed them right out. But you know what. Those non computer guys had the most amazing chops. Stuff nobody will ever see again. I learned so much from them. But now i'm stuck starring at this bullshit, looking into huge empty tracking rooms, completely alone because my 2nd can't bare to watch me stare at this stuff himself. How can I have him help me. Help me with a keystroke? He is learning nothing. Man, i jump and cut my rate in half for live band tracking sessions. The bigger and more complex the better. People putting gray matter and hardware together sounds like nothing else. Computers have sucked life and community out of the music and brought me a living too. strange.

It pains me to watch everybody fiddling with their Apps in this forum. All this setting up and optimizing, bug fixes and endless talk on what one should do about the conflict with the original version of the plugin manufacturers OS recommendations if you us a proccessor from. I had you goin didn't I. Well, 15 years ago that would've been a joke and it still is. I'm with you DKFu

Ableton Forum

Ableton's release is the Beta and the Beta is the release.

Rant of the century!

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