Ableton Forum

udp wrote:

RopeyPunter wrote:

MrYellow wrote:Actually there has been a conclusion, in the case of Logic anyway..... It's
slightly louder.... 2.48db (or something like that) gain difference. Other
then that 1 + 1 = 2 and all music software uses a computer to do math and
computers always do math the same.

ehh...it would be a fallacy to assume all software impliment algebra/maths in the same way. there are all kinds of processes that a piece of software might put between concluding that 1 + 1 = 2 , during before & after .... if we're all just hypothisizing here, I dont think it's safe to assume 1 + 1 = 2 therefore the audio output by all audio apps must be, essentially the same, bar gain.

I might normally agree your statement here, but we've gone through this on this forum. Even using different ways of mixing and routing, and as far as anyone has got is it comes down to gain. So I've changed how I master and it's made a world of difference. Less compression and slight limiting seems to do the trick. That may have more to do with the software compressors I use than Live, but I've found less compression sounds better FOR THE STYLE OF MUSIC I WRITE. If Live seems to be approx. 2.5 db less than others, perhaps more compression is called for on other tracks.

well thats what I'm saying, your software compressors (i.e your extra & different implimentations of math) make a difference to your sound. And all audio apps omit and add mathmatical rules to their own necessities and tastes......its quite feasable that each and every audio app has its own sound, and hence could also be favoured or avoided for various tastes. .... rationalising this topic down to '1+1=2 therefore all audio apps sound the same' ....well its a fallacy.

correct me if i'm wrong....I dont claim to be an expert on this

well, forget plugins for a second. Of course different plug ins sound different.

But a lot of folks seem to think that each software sums the output of its channels to its master bus differently. Not true, say i and some others.



.lm.

maybe Live makes one produce more earwax,,compared to like protools or logiq..do u guys have the same experience?? whaat??

I like the way Live sounds. It sounds yummy. Except the stretching, but a little verb can help with the grains.

So to highjack the thread, does Acid's timestretching sound better?

What is this about Live's output being lower?

I've heard that before but dismissed it - Live hits the max on my soundcard's monitor mixer level meter and my (real) mixer. How can anything else be louder?

Anyone got a link re this?

The reason they sound different is because of panning laws dictated by the individual DAW. Cubase, Logic, Sonar, etc. all have different panning laws as a default. All offer the options to change the panning laws as you see fit/to your desire. That is the reason why a track in Sonar may sound "louder" or "brighter" from one app to the next.

Here is an article from EQ that goes into everything you would want to know about panning laws.

http://www.eqmag.com/story.asp?sectionc ... ycode=7672

Reason, for example, is set to -3dB center, sin/cos taper, constant power. The signal level stays at 0dB when panned right or left, but drops by -3dB in each channel when centered.

Sonar's is the opposite at: 0dB sin/cos taper, constant power (for the default). This seems to be Live's as well. But with Sonar you have 6 options to choose from (Options/Audio). The reason being if someone gives you something in Cubase, which has a different set of default panning laws, you can adjust to retain the mix and prevent phasing or other issues.

Bottom line is, if you think you hear a difference between the DAW's on the same system, you are more than likely either hearing the difference in Panning Laws, or your ears are lying to you.

Dude. Don't you know?

http://cgi.ebay.com/PROFESSIONAL-AUDIO- ... dZViewItem

Feshay.

















You are the hundredth person to ask a question that the joined forces of the ableton have not only answered in full, but also made glue out of.

mr yellow wrote:

Other
then that 1 + 1 = 2 and all music software uses a computer to do math and
computers always do math the same.

simply a very wrong information, yes computers do calculate all the same way, but the way of programming and implementing structures that do affect the sound is common parctise and makes for example certain plugs, talking about say a reverb, sounding good or bad. the exact same applies to the so called audio engines of DAW apps. which one do you prefer or believe sounds better, can lead to an endless discussion, fact is that ALL daws have a different sonic character.

i just discovered this as well:
leisuremuffin wrote:

But a lot of folks seem to think that each software sums the output of its channels to its master bus differently. Not true, say i and some others.

last but not least, there IS a difference, ok i really don't mean to be cocky, but most of you are not going to be able to make the difference, simply because of monitor issues, who of you uses a serious set of monitors in an top notch acustically treatet room? most of you believe that some knob twiddling with stuff like t-racks is called mastering...
so what do you think you can expect?

please don't get me wrong, but if you have a setup with mediocre speakers in a bedroom, how do want to hear what is going on?

really don't mean to be arrogant here, but i get goose pimples if i have to read the spread of completely false information.

what you prefer sonically can be a matter of taste, sound is subjective, but only up to certain level, after that level you can argue about sound being subjective.

You have to search for some of the previous threads. I mean, of course your right, there are differences, but they are entirely independent of the professional funstionality of either products. Yellow did the math, showed us the math (at least twice) and the thread died.

I didn't do the math..........



But yeah.... Sound is subjective..... Math isn't.

When you 180deg out of phase 2 waves and superpose them.

If you get 0..... Then it's ZERO.... That means the 2 programs output
EXACTLY the same thing (after gain adjustment)..... End of story.


Plugins sound different because they use different code, different math,
different programming methods........ Adding 2 waves together is the most
basic math there is, I learnt it in year 1 at school, there are no different
techniques, no different methods, no different whatever.

Panning laws..... yeah.... For the purposes of seeing if something adds
stuff together differently, mono makes sense.

edit: oh yeah and on floating point math.... Yeah computers don't think of
math the same way we do, shifting bits around and stuff isn't how I think of
math anyway (unless workin in ASM ... Just don't really think floating
point errors or whatever would come into this.

Why the hell do I get involved in this.

-Ben

I'M WITH YOU Memento Mori!

YOU NAILED IT IT'S ALL IN THE PANNING LAW'S!

My engineer/music creation partner hiped me to the same info last year.

The difference is with Sonar, Cuebase, Pro Tools and most other DAW's is that you can adjust the panning laws and at this point you are unable to do so in Live.

I'm REALLY HOPING that this will change with Live 6.0.

What I've been doing is composing in Live & freezing my Vst & Vsti tracks, then running Live through Sonar 5 to export my final mixes.

ABZurd

math? numbers? are you shure you are in the right department? how about trying http://www.math.com instead?

and yupp zero is zero, that counts for ears as well.

Tell someone with tinnitus that zero is zero when it comes to ears

-Ben

i know, i am being cheeky. peace.

just believe in what you want, when it comes to sound, math doesn't say anything. it explains sience. that's all.

you know that two different units from the same kind, can have the exact, i mean absolut exact same technical data for every aspect / detail of the unit. and they can sound way, way different. so much to sience / math in music / sound reproduction.

Which is in a way exactly why this thread and all the others like it are so
VERY stupid. Mix in whatever you like using and get the result you are
looking for, then burn it. Just don't say that the software resulted in that
mix being that way.... Ears and taste generated the result.

-Ben