Alright, I'm with you. Bring on the MIDI sequencing...

KnTo · Post by **KnTo** » Sat Oct 04, 2003 1:12 am

i hope that live won't get mIdI to , because mIdI is crap .
here we have the solution to pass through midi , with live.
If you wan't acces to VSTi , i think there R enough with Project5, buzz ,rEaSon ......
Live is aimed to audio and will remain to audio forever
we have midi mapping now, n the new pitch enveloppe feature makes great acces ti pitch and loop transposition, to build new phrazes , new music.
even , we should have a way to move the warps markers via midi .
Imagine that live is a unique software sampler/sequence , we should only use it what for it's aimed.
KnTo

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Oct 04, 2003 1:24 am

KnTo wrote:i hope that live won't get mIdI to , because mIdI is crap .
here we have the solution to pass through midi , with live.
If you wan't acces to VSTi , i think there R enough with Project5, buzz ,rEaSon ......
Live is aimed to audio and will remain to audio forever
we have midi mapping now, n the new pitch enveloppe feature makes great acces ti pitch and loop transposition, to build new phrazes , new music.
even , we should have a way to move the warps markers via midi .
Imagine that live is a unique software sampler/sequence , we should only use it what for it's aimed.
KnTo

Well to each his own. i don't think midi is crap, without midi you couldn't even control live without a mouse. By the way, the program is called "Live", not "audio and no midi". FOr those of us that use it live, we know that save for REason, the P5's etc. you listed aren't reliable (though FLrewire beta is sweet) enough for "live" use onstage, where you can't be having crashes and hiccups. Reason doesn't support vstis. So for those of us who have paid good money for good sounding vstis, i don't think its too much to want to be able to use them live with Live. There is currently no 100% reliable way to use vstis in Live, and people like myself want them, please respect our opinins, as I respectfully disagree with yours. Live is such a unique program, and many of us use it in many different ways. For those of us using it live, it would be awesome to bring a laptop with some vstis (lounge lizard, b4, fm7, ...) and not an actual rhodes, hammond, and other hardware to get those sounds. Vsti's are clearly a large and growing part of the music sofware out there, many people own them and use them, and most all major apps (except live) seem to support them. you can't easily ignore this huge part of the market. I;m sure lots of vsti owner have bought another app instead of Live based soley on lack of vsti suppport in Live.

KnTo · Post by **KnTo** » Sat Oct 04, 2003 2:15 pm

indeed i think it's could be very usefull to use VSTi as rewire devices ,
without mIdI sequences editing.
But i really think midi edit is not the aim of ableton.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Oct 07, 2003 11:46 pm

Midi is needed for the studio version. Its a simple as that.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Oct 08, 2003 12:01 am

"Midi is needed for the studio version. Its a simple as that."

Find people who can play their instrumentss and record it live. It's how many studios have worked for decades. Absract for midi fiddlers maybe, but true.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Oct 08, 2003 2:51 am

Anonymous wrote:"Midi is needed for the studio version. Its a simple as that."

Find people who can play their instrumentss and record it live. It's how many studios have worked for decades. Absract for midi fiddlers maybe, but true.

Whatever dude. I come from a performance and studio based bass and guitar background, and have only recently gotten into computers and software recording, and using keyboards. TO me, midi recording and editing like in FLoops is amazing--no more almost perfect takes ruined by a miss-hit or miss-timed note, the freedom to manipulate every single note's timing, length, pitch, volume, pan, and effects settings is awesome. To have that knowledge that anything can be fixed in editing frees me up to try recording things a bit beyond my capability, then edit mistakes out--it has improved my creativty, and certainly hastened my workflow. So maybe you play everything perfect, but most great musicians will tell you life is VERY boring without stretching boundaries, tying new things, and making mistakes. Midi recording is great for allowing that freedowm of mind and of control, and this is coming from someone who has logged some serious studio time. you can also certainly use midi recording and editing to make sequences and sounds impossible to create with just yourself via staight up audio out of a keyboard. Granted the program is called Live, and the midi recording and editing isn't really necessary for that, but people are clearly using Live for more than just perfomance, because it is the shizznat. To make Live a viable studio option and not some fancy plugin or rewire device for pt of logic or whatever, midi recording and editing (and thus vsti support) is needed. Otherwise, the other studio DAW will always be necessary--and that's the whole point of this thread--a lot of us Live enthusiasts have tried the best and won't settle for the rest--we don't want to rewire, we want it all in Live, with Live's style and refinement. We can wait, but I for one sure hope it comes in time. Midi and vsti's are undoubtedly a huge part of the software recording, this can't be denied. It makes economic and logical sense that Live should someday incorporate these. If you don't want them, don't use them, or stick to current versions of Live, but trust me, lots of people want these things right inside Live.

KnTo · Post by **KnTo** » Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:09 am

i keep thinking Live doens't need to get bigger with midi editing.
maybe an AUdiO Midi feature ?

most great musicians will tell you life is VERY boring without stretching

indeed that's what live does very well

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 6:46 am

Find people who can play their instrumentss and record it live. It's how many studios have worked for decades. Absract for midi fiddlers maybe, but true.

I think you need to get out a little more of your bedroom and look around. Not everybody does laptop music like you. There are still people playing instruments and will be for as long has they enjoy playing them.

Midi is old but still useful in many ways and without midi, you wouldn't be able to use thoses midi controllers with ableton live or sync it with something else.

I'll go with whatever ableton decides to come up with. So far, what they did is amazing and interesting.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 4:35 pm

The point was not that you don't need MIDI but that just by having VSTi's in the track input selectors you could play them "live" without any need for MIDI clips/editing/etc. Via MIDI of course. Then the instruments could be recorded into clips as and when, the whole thing would be a live instrument(s). Yes, using MIDI.

I'll try and type little slower next time for you.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 9:06 pm

that is sillyness. By the time ableton makes it so that you can load a vsti as a live in, play it via midi, and record the audio clip, it would be assinine not to include the ability to record and edit midi, at least as an option that you don't have to use, as you have clearly stated many times that you don't want it. Some of us do want it, and midi data takes up zero hard drive space and cpu strain compared to recording audio--its not like midi recording is going to hamper live as far as performance goes. And I'm sure ableton could integrate midi recording in a way that wouldn't change the interface to keep closed-minded people happy. Like it could be an option to record a vst in the session view as either a midi clip, OR audio. In the arranger view, it would seem you could record both. Each vsti in track in the arranger could have a button that you would hit to toggle between seeing midi data, audio data, or both. That way, I could be happy with midi editing and recording possibilities and vstis in Live, and you could be happy without ever having to even look at the midi recording you dread so much--what is so wrong with midi recording? I mean, even with all Live has done (especially 3.0) to advance the science of audio manipulation, there is simply no way you can deny that midi editing and recording offers far more possibilities (fixing wrong notes in chords, slicing, dicing and rearranging, etc.). Try not to rain on other peoples midi parades.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 2:31 am

That's all well and good, very useful of course as well. But why I mention doing this, which would be easier to implement than full editing capabilities, is that it would be useful to plug in things like MIDI guitar controllers, keyboards etc and play live. Know what I mean? For when I am not stuck in my bedroom as you put it. I don't tend to edit midi note-lengths in editors or use piano-rolls. etc when gigging personally. I guess we come from different worlds of what is and what isn't useful in a live situation or what constitutes live music for that matter.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 4:29 am

Anonymous wrote:That's all well and good, very useful of course as well. But why I mention doing this, which would be easier to implement than full editing capabilities, is that it would be useful to plug in things like MIDI guitar controllers, keyboards etc and play live. Know what I mean? For when I am not stuck in my bedroom as you put it. I don't tend to edit midi note-lengths in editors or use piano-rolls. etc when gigging personally. I guess we come from different worlds of what is and what isn't useful in a live situation or what constitutes live music for that matter.

Get off your high horse dude. You don't know me, you haven't seen me play live. I'm in three different bands, two strictly instruments (no computers) where I play basses (upright, fretless, 6 string) on original rock tunes in one band, and jazz, funk, world, etc. in the other band. The third is a guitarist and Me on Live, keyboards, drumkat, basses, and beatboxing and vocoder, not to mention various live effects. I gig out a couple times a week, and produce music at home in my studio and have been playing for decades--I think I know a bit about live music etc., thank you very much. Just cause you don't want a feature doesn't give you the right to make that decision for others, or to assume you know what others think. People use Live for all kinds of things, not just for live, not just for instruments,not just for samples and loops, not just for djs--as many different styles of music and types of people are out there, thats how many ways people use this awesome, highly flexible and powerful software. If you did any studio type work or have used Live very much, and used other comparable un-intuitive and workflow hampering DAWs like PT, Logic, cubase etc. , you too might want your only software do-it-all app to be Live--I know I do. I use live Live weekly, but also use it in the studio, and know that many others do the same. Try to be more receptive and open minded to others opinions, instead of assuming untrue things and insulting others. My point stands, by the time vsti's can be used as a live in and controlled by midi, it would be silly not to include midi recording and editing capabilities. Time will tell, Ableton knows whats up.

Ryan

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 4:38 am

Well, it was you who started the "get your of your bedroom" crap.. dude. No high-horse intended. And no, I don't know you and you don't know me or my needs or experience. That's the thing with the net, people can't just have their say without someone either a) assuming you have less experience than them or b) POSSIBLY having a different slant on things.

I agree, Ableton are going a great job with the software. This was just a thought on what *I* would find useful *myself* as it progresses *before* things like MIDI clips/editing etc. It would even help maybe to test out the instrument engine before those things are implemeted?

So. When YOU start coming it with the high-horse that what YOU want is the way forward as opposed (god forbid) someone else having a different point of view don't be surprised when you get some of the same attitude back? Dude??

Oh. I seperated the bedroom/musical side of things some 20 or so years back, good luck with your 3 bands.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 10:34 am

Wow ! I never thought MIDI would lead Live users to such extremities. Sorry for the MIDI freaks, but I also feel Live would loose its originality and lightness if MIDI was incorporated. You know, they start with VSTi and then people ask for full editing capabilities and so on then we end with a mammoth !

quandry · Post by **quandry** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 1:25 pm

Anonymous wrote:Well, it was you who started the "get your of your bedroom" crap.. dude. No high-horse intended. And no, I don't know you and you don't know me or my needs or experience. That's the thing with the net, people can't just have their say without someone either a) assuming you have less experience than them or b) POSSIBLY having a different slant on things.

I agree, Ableton are going a great job with the software. This was just a thought on what *I* would find useful *myself* as it progresses *before* things like MIDI clips/editing etc. It would even help maybe to test out the instrument engine before those things are implemeted?

So. When YOU start coming it with the high-horse that what YOU want is the way forward as opposed (god forbid) someone else having a different point of view don't be surprised when you get some of the same attitude back? Dude??

Oh. I seperated the bedroom/musical side of things some 20 or so years back, good luck with your 3 bands.

BTW, I did not say the bedroom thing at all, that was someoe else enitrely, I just quoted your post (do you have a name) to make my point. My other post in this thread are all of the long, one paragraph posts, and I regret not tagging my name, Ryan to them , and I should log in but I'm lazy. So all your bedroom talk has nothing to do with me. Anyway, take it easy, we all love music and ableton, so its all good. I guess I just don't understand people that are adamantly against new (and useful) features in Live--to me its the whole "change is bad", stick with tradition additude, I have yet to hear a single logical, reasonable reason why midi recording and editing would be bad and detrimental to Live. All I've read here is that "midi is crap" and that live would be a mammoth etc. These are not legitamite reasons, and with five minutes of thought I already proposed a simple way in a previous post that would allow users who don't want to record/edit midi to never even have to look at that part of the interface. I'm sure Ableton could not only implement it, but do it in a way that won't change the interface or the flow. I'll try to explain one last time: lots of us love Live and want to use it for live on stage, and ALSO for serious studio production. After using live and other DAW's, who wants to go back to something besides Live (not me!)? Rewire is not the answer, if you've used rewire extensively, you know that it is currently not the smooth running sweetness that people might lead you to believe (Live and Reason are certianly the smoothest pair, but there are plenty of posts on these forums about issues even with those two). Basically, myself and others would love to just use Live, but to be able to use out vsti's that we paid for, and to be able to record and edit them. It not up to us, so we'll let Ableton decide, but clearly their mass appeal (and sales, and therefore r+d) would probably double or more if vsti support were added. If they went that extra step and didn't offer midi recording and editing capabilities (like Every vsti suppporting program), they would be shooting themselves in the foot.

Ryan