[OT] What is happening to my country?

[djshiva]

we live in a society that assumes (nay, encourages) people to have no sense of personal responsibility. we hand over these responsibilities to a "government" that ostensibly is suppposed to take care of us, but never does.

Shiva. What are you talking about? Are you talking about the USA? Are you kidding?

We most certainly DO NOT live in a society which "encourages no sense of personal responsibility." We live in the most capitalistic and free economy in the world, and we are expected to take personal responsibility every day of our lives. We are expected to support ourselves through working. We are expected to pay taxes. We are expected to obey laws, and we must face consequences when we break them.

The government is NOT expected to "take care" of us. We are not a socialist or communist country. If you can't take care of yourself, then you are not going to succeed in this country. End of story.

Certainly there are some programs which are intended to aid people, but you can't possibly think that the government is supposed to take care of everyone. That is not their mandate. Government is in place for the following:


Legislative branch.... to write laws.
Executive branch... to enforce laws.
Judicial brach... to interpret laws and the constitution.


Nowhere is it written that the job of government is to "take care" of people. At least... not in the USA.

basically i was speaking more of our mental inability to conceptualize self-determination without the presence of leaders to tell us how to live(at work so forgive if i cannot get very far into detail).

whether it's politicians, bosses, gods or parents...we are expected to give up our power to an authority. self-determination in large groups REALLY FUCKING scares that authority.

and for the record i don't think it's the government's job (or intention) to protect or serve any of us. i think it's been set up in a way that convinces people that is its purpose, because that keeps people docile and obedient.

i could go on for hours, but i am at work...more on this fascinating (at least to me) topic later...

[deva]

No offense, but you do not know anything about this.

The Rainbow Gatherings are a model of people getting things done together without some government agency policing them.

The government is not reasonable. The person who signs the paper (this is not new this year) is going to go to jail for 6 months to a year. It does not matter whether anything 'happens'. It is just the excuse for the government to shut down something it does not like. It is a calculated campaign to stop people from freely gathering on public land because no big corporation is making a bunch of money from it and because the government just cannot stand people who express any sort of freedom.

The Rainbow Gathering polices itself, cleans up after itself, a group of people stay afterwards for weeks making sure the location is in the same condition as before the gathering. There is medical support as needed. There is a long track record of effective self governance that is remarkable in its democratic character.

2 years ago one person signed the paper knowing they were going to spend time in jail so that the gathering could happen. I do not know what happened last year.

It is distasteful, but someone would sign the paper if that was all it really was, but that is just the excuse. The U.S. government intends to shut the gatherings down.

There is a rising fascism in this country. It is a dark dark road we are heading down.

...36 CFR 251.54 They require that that someone sign as an agent for a fictional group entity named as permit Holder -- which then must assume full liability from the Government and bind participants vicariously to its terms.

Sheesh.

The fact that they want somebody to represent the group and be liable in case anything happens is pretty reasonable to me.

What if there is lingering environmental damage from the gathering? What if somebody hurts themselves? With zero organizational structure, there's:

1. No incentive to assemble safely and responsibly towards the local environment / residents, becuase there's;

2. No accountability.

If the rainbow people wanna assemble (which they have the right to do so), it's simple. Get together, elect a representative, and sign the damn paper. It's that easy.

I mean, I have the right to vote, but I still have to REGISTER. Americans have the right to bear arms, but I imagine that they have to sign a piece of paper to do so. I have the right to free Health Care in Canada, but I still have to fill out a fairly comprehensive set of forms to get a health card. I have the right to own a dog, drive a car or catch a fish, but I need a license. Shit, nowhere in the constitution or bill of rights does it say that these rights must be extended without any sort of reasonable administrative process on the part of the government...

I see this more like these people are specifically and intentionally thumbing their nose at a very small, very reasonable excercise of authority (which is designed to protect the year-round residents and the environment) out of some manner of anarchist / anti-establishment idealogy. Either get with the program and elect a representative to go get a permit, or assemble on somebody's private property (with their permission of course) and the whole problem goes away.

By the creed of the gatherings, no one can appoint themselves to such a position.

...Then the problem isn't the government, it's your creed. Besides, nobody said anything about "appointing" a leader, just elect (or decide through weed-induced consensus) somebody to sign the damn forms. There's good reason we as a society demand accountability, it's fundamental to our organization. It's a fucking permit for christ's sake...

Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill.

[deva]

we live in a society that assumes (nay, encourages) people to have no sense of personal responsibility. we hand over these responsibilities to a "government" that ostensibly is suppposed to take care of us, but never does.

Shiva. What are you talking about? Are you talking about the USA? Are you kidding?

We most certainly DO NOT live in a society which "encourages no sense of personal responsibility." We live in the most capitalistic and free economy in the world, and we are expected to take personal responsibility every day of our lives. We are expected to support ourselves through working. We are expected to pay taxes. We are expected to obey laws, and we must face consequences when we break them.

you are confusing responsibility with obedience... they are two very different things

[kramerica]

we live in a society that assumes (nay, encourages) people to have no sense of personal responsibility. we hand over these responsibilities to a "government" that ostensibly is suppposed to take care of us, but never does.

Shiva. What are you talking about? Are you talking about the USA? Are you kidding?

We most certainly DO NOT live in a society which "encourages no sense of personal responsibility." We live in the most capitalistic and free economy in the world, and we are expected to take personal responsibility every day of our lives. We are expected to support ourselves through working. We are expected to pay taxes. We are expected to obey laws, and we must face consequences when we break them.

The government is NOT expected to "take care" of us. We are not a socialist or communist country. If you can't take care of yourself, then you are not going to succeed in this country. End of story.

Certainly there are some programs which are intended to aid people, but you can't possibly think that the government is supposed to take care of everyone. That is not their mandate. Government is in place for the following:


Legislative branch.... to write laws.
Executive branch... to enforce laws.
Judicial brach... to interpret laws and the constitution.


Nowhere is it written that the job of government is to "take care" of people. At least... not in the USA.

What he said. ^^^^^

Damn hippies.

[subterFUSE]

basically i was speaking more of our mental inability to conceptualize self-determination without the presence of leaders to tell us how to live(at work so forgive if i cannot get very far into detail).

Ahh.. ok. I misunderstood. Looked like you were trying to say that the government is supposed to take care of people, but it fails.

Sorry for the confusion.


I would agree that many people in this country THINK the government's job is to take care of everybody.... and this leads to major problems.

An Example would be Hurricane Katrina.

[djadonis206]

basically i was speaking more of our mental inability to conceptualize self-determination without the presence of leaders to tell us how to live(at work so forgive if i cannot get very far into detail).

Ahh.. ok. I misunderstood. Looked like you were trying to say that the government is supposed to take care of people, but it fails.

Sorry for the confusion.


I would agree that many people in this country THINK the government's job is to take care of everybody.... and this leads to major problems.

An Example would be Hurricane Katrina.

and...

welfare
affirmative action
Federal Loans for school
The war on drugs
The Mexican Border
The Iraq War
The war on terrorism

[jamesp]

<<< "The Rainbow Gathering polices itself, cleans up after itself, a group of people stay afterwards for weeks making sure the location is in the same condition as before the gathering. There is medical support as needed." >>>

Leaving local ERs with an $80,000 tab is not my idea of medical support.

And I've seen the aftermath of a Gathering. All I can say is, not in my backyard, no thank you.
This shit comes up every year. It's time for the "Family" to grow up and get a site.