One (1) LIVE version for ALL that includes Operator/Sampler?

[mbenigni]

Operator and Simpler are way overpriced. The perceived value is significantly lower than the asking price. That's the ONLY reason this issue keeps coming up. If the perceived value of Operator were equivelant to a $200 or $300 synth, the asking price of $150 is reasonable. But it's not. And Simpler? Even worse, IMO.

Exacerbating this are the endless references to and inserts of Operator in the users manual, sample content, and tutorials. It's not just a separate product you can decide you don't want and forget about. Ableton has intentionally set things up so you're constantly tripping over it. It is literally IN YOUR WAY, if you're trying to preview your way through download Live sets etc.

I very nearly bought Operator the other night because I was so curious about the Live sets, and because I'm completely overwhelmed by the quality of Live itself. But from what I read here, I would have been disappointed w/ the investment.

And Ableton certainly can't go back and lower the price now...they've had just enough Operator purchasers, who are very vocal, who would throw a fit if Operator were suddenly priced appropriately. (Like, around $50 at the most.)

This is a good point. Never stops Cakewalk, who will sell a product for $300 for a year or so, then start giving it away - often literally. But as the guy who always throws fits on Cakewalk.com... I can only agree with you.

[mbenigni]

When I purchased LIVE...I didn't have any VSTs, so in order to use it how I wanted to....I went straight to looking for a VST synth to play with. Needless to say...I was in the same boat as "mbenigni".

My name's Marc. Actually I've got piles of softsynths (Dimension Pro is the current workhorse) but Operator did catch my eye while I was listening to "Distortion" (the demo tune.)

[5dots]

Exacerbating this are the endless references to and inserts of Operator in the users manual, sample content, and tutorials. It's not just a separate product you can decide you don't want and forget about. Ableton has intentionally set things up so you're constantly tripping over it. It is literally IN YOUR WAY, if you're trying to preview your way through download Live sets etc.

That may be your experience - I used the demo of Operator when it came out and decided I didn't need it, and until Sampler was announced and people here started complaining about this stuff again, I never thought about it. It has been incredibly easy for me to avoid Operator, and I'm glad to have the chance to do so. Simply put, I don't use FM synths, so I'm not interested in spending $150 on one - and I'm still not interested in spending any extra money for the privilege of having it bundled, as I'm still not going to use it.

[dm_hawk]

if ableton's development costs for these extras are substantial, it seems like they would do better to offer these as vst or au (thereby pulling in revenue from a wider market), instead of a missing element of their "complete" system. if the development costs are not so high, i would love to see the extras included in Live and the price bumped up a bit.

[mbenigni]

That may be your experience - I used the demo of Operator when it came out and decided I didn't need it, and until Sampler was announced and people here started complaining about this stuff again, I never thought about it. It has been incredibly easy for me to avoid Operator, and I'm glad to have the chance to do so. Simply put, I don't use FM synths, so I'm not interested in spending $150 on one - and I'm still not interested in spending any extra money for the privilege of having it bundled, as I'm still not going to use it.

I can see your point of view. Modularity can be a good thing and you shouldn't be forced to buy what you don't want.

But ultimately I still think it's a quantitative thing. I mean, what if the bundle only cost an extra $10? What about $1? At some point, you'd probably say, "yeah, whatever..." And the question is whether, at that price point, Ableton would be in a worse position for loss of revenue on Operator sales, or in a better position for having made Live more attractive to new buyers, easier to document, etc...

Either way, I'm just debating out of a mild interest. It's not a big deal to me. I'd defer to anyone w/ a strong opinion, but first re-emphasize that we're talking about a "small" premium. Maybe even none. Cake rebundles stuff constantly just to boost sales.

I agree w/ dm_hawk, as a separate product it would have been much more sensible as a VST plugin... but then it would have been swimming with much bigger sharks.

[Pasha]

I think that being tied to Live and not a common VST Operator should be priced about 75 Euros or less. But I think should be kept as options.

[Johnisfaster]

every time I read the subject of this thread I keep thinking "ONE RING TO RULE THEM ALL AND IN THE DARKNESS BIND THEM!!"

thats all

[woodie]

ok...45 votes so far and looks like keeping Operator & Sampler separated to help keep LIVE's price down = is slightly more favorable. Obviously that camp has absolutely no interest in using either of the two! ABLETON! I WOULD BE TAKING NOTES HERE!!!

That's interesting as I thought that at least a majority of *already* LIVE users here wouldn't mind spending a bit extra to include the "outsider tools", but almost 1/2 of the votes so far indicate there's also positive feedback on that as well...even for a small increase in price, though!

I wonder if the "Hell No" half would also rather prefer a stripped-down version of LIVE to include nothing but the Host and prefer to use only 3rd party tools. ...? Hmmm.... Is LIVE LITE not a totally stripped down version of the FULL LIVE??

Interesting nevertheless....Keep the votes coming!

[woodie]

And Ableton certainly can't go back and lower the price now...they've had just enough Operator purchasers, who are very vocal, who would throw a fit if Operator were suddenly priced appropriately. (Like, around $50 at the most.)

So, they're screwed.

Actually, ekko....I don't think that's impossible. Let's assume for a minute that Ableton came out with a new/one version of LIVE 4 ALL that DID include Operator/Sampler. Whatever price increase they did (which I'm only saying a SMALL price increase...say US$49.99 or less......then Ableton can surely give those who bought Operator a special discount on the new version only. Live 5 users wanting to stick to LIVE 5 but want Operator have to pay the going rate, but this would also entice LIVE 5 users to upgrade to LIVE 6....at least it would for me.

Since Operator is sold separately, there's no doubt that Ableton keeps a list of those "registered users". They could:

1) simply email all the Operator owners of the special discount for them when the upgraded to the new LIVE 4 ALL.

2) make a note on the special upgrade and how to apply for it under each registered user in their online account. For example...when I logged into my account online, since I don't own Operator.....I would not see the special notice.

3) make a statement on the website somwhere + the pricing page.

SO....I don't think it's impossible....as long as they make the deal attractive to current Operator owners....I don't think anyone would complain, but hey....we're all different here and obviously judging by the poll, money is also an issue for some.

[djadonis206]

I actually agree witht he poster - I don't use Operator and or Sampler but whatever

But I think bleton should raise the price a tad bit and include them not as add-ons

my only point of reference is REASON - I never use the NN-XT or that other sampler bt they're there, they are a part of the program as a whole

I highly doubt it would discourage people from buying Ableton

the essense of the program in my opinion is the ease of use, the fact you can make some serious beats super beats in an hour and the community

IMO that's what you pay for and I'd pay a little more if they through Operator and Sampler in there for good measure

sure why not, raise the price a tad and give it all away

instead of dropping bombs every other release for what I consider to be way over priced redundant VST's (redundant as in most if not all already have a sampler or synth)

[Pasha]

I think that Live when bought from scratch is a little expensive : 499 for Boxed, 469 for download (Euros). If retaining the same price, Ableton should add operator, then would be like no other on the market. Impulse, Simpler Operator and more usable than demonstrative presets. You really would like to have it more than any other DAW.

Otherwise, If Sampler will be added then a price increase will be necessary, but what's needed then is more usable presets sounds, clips. The EIC might be the beginning of Abes selling sounds as well (and the way to go), without all the fuss rrelated to 3rd parties VSTi's that we all know more than a few times give problems with Live. You can have the assurance that all will work. Ableton has been the 1st to go Universal, should keep this advantage especially now that all commercial VSTi producers lag availability of universal version of their stuff (and it always be release 1 when available, when Abes got release 2 - Live 6)

Pls comment on this

[woodie]

Pasha - basically that's how I see it as well. The closest competition as I mentioned in this post includes both Effects AND Synths for the price you pay, but if we hypothetically add Operator + Sampler on top....you can easily see it's WAY OUT OF THE BALLPARK; not only that....Operator & Sampler can ONLY be used in LIVE and no other Host!

Just a note of clarification to folks voting, that when I say in the Poll "YEAH! ..... even with a SMALL price increase!"....I'm really talking about a SMALL increase over the BASE price of LIVE 5.....WITHOUT Operator/Sampler, of course.

For example....

LIVE 5 Boxed = $499.00 (this is purchasing directly from Ableton, but you can get it cheaper locally if you know how to haggle)

LIVE 5 Boxed + Operator = $648.00

LIVE 5 Boxed + Operator + Sampler (hypothetically) = $767.00

Here are the direct sales prices of LIVE's 2 closest competitors:

Project5 Boxed = $429.00 (includes 7 or 8 synths + effects)
Project5 Boxed + Dimension Pro = $528.00

Reason = $499.00 (basically 6 synths + effects)

SO....in this case and hence the Poll, (I think) it makes more sense for Ableton to throw everything in and to price LIVE more like this:

LIVE 5 Boxed + Operator + Sampler (hypothetically) = between $500.00 - $549.00 (and to maintain the same price for future versions or to align just higher than the competition).

Downloadable and Upgrade prices would reflect basically the same ratio in the price increase.

So yeah...Might as well thrown them in LIVE and price it a bit higher than competition - that's it - one version for everyone that includes everything. If they keep coming out with these LIVE ONLY synths and keep charging that much extra.....I think they're shooting themselves in the foot. Judging by the votes so far, it's evident there IS a LIVE user base that is cost-conscious and rather not see the price go up, though...NOT EVEN A LITTLE BIT ! With the market saturated by VST Synths....I ain't interested in spending $270.00 more for Operator & Sampler, but for 49.99 to see them thrown into the base price that will include new stuff in the future! yeah, sure why not.

Personally, I think in the long run, the Abes need to keep up with the competition offering + pricing, but still price themselves to be a LITTLE more expensive. I think with the advent of Cakewalk announcing that they are working on the next version of Project5 (and Rene being on board with them ) + I'm sure the Propellers are working on Reason 4.....I think it's going to get good.

[djadonis206]

....Operator & Sampler can ONLY be used in LIVE and no other Host!

Same goes for Logic and Reasons instruments - no big deal - but now you can rewire LIVE Instruments (sequence them via rewire)

So yeah...If they keep coming out with these LIVE ONLY synths and keep charging that much extra.....I think they're shooting themselves in the foot.

The price tag for the Operator and Sampler are a bit to high, yes.

Judging by the votes so far, it's evident there IS a LIVE user base that is cost-conscious and rather not see the price go up, though...NOT EVEN A LITTLE BIT ! With the market saturated by VST Synths....I ain't interested in spending $270.00 more for Operator & Sampler, but for 49.99 to see them thrown into the base price that will include new stuff in the future! yeah, sure why not.

agreed, add a tad bit more to the overall price and give us everything - not one thing every year that cost an arm and leg on top of the upgrade

Personally, I think in the long run, the Abes need to keep up with the competition offering + pricing, but still price themselves to be a LITTLE more expensive. I think with the advent of Cakewalk announcing that they are working on the next version of Project5 (and Rene being on board with them ) + I'm sure the Propellers are working on Reason 4.....I think it's going to get good.

Curious about Reason 4 - I bet Reason 4 and Live 6 or 7 combo would just be nuts

peace

Adonis!

[woodie]

Heads up....SONAR 6 (Producer) has just been released and looks like the market price is $499.00 (same as LIVE 6 NEW price).

http://www.americanmusical.com/item--i-CAK-S6PRO.html

Check out the plethora of Instruments/Effects that are included in the Producer Edition not to mention "ACT" which looks like their answer to AutoMap.

http://www.cakewalk.com/Products/SONAR/Exclusives.asp

Come on Ableton...wake up and smell the coffee. That Sonar GUI is finally getting tighter and looks yummy....I only wonder what they are working on for Project5 and what they're going to include with it for the price.