Ableton Forum

Basically, all code compiled will have a certain amount of bugs present. Thus the more advanced operating systems become, the more code that needs to be written. Logically, if you assume that a certain percentage of all code is bugged, then the more code you have that is necessary for more complex operating systems, the more bugs you are likely to experience. Perhaps I'm looking through rose-tinted glasses, but I never remember DOS ever crashing on me, or Windows 95 for that reason. It's the golden rule; the more complex the unit the greater the likelyhood of failure. This is why Bacteria was the likely the first substantial life on earth and will probably be the last

Hey gang,
check the live 5 performance test thread to see my results with vista and audio.
the performance is AMAZING!
i am at 64 samples of latency and surfing the net, outlook for email, photoshopping plus many other apps open with no pops or clicks.
this is a huge leap forward.
its fast, stable and sexy. definately on par with osx and more stable than 10.4.7 in my experience....
plus all my NI software works!
i tried to watch the wwdc keynote to see all the pc bashing but quicktime wouldnt even stream correctly.. what else is new?
perhaps apple should spend a little less time bashing vista... maybe they could look into why my old macbook pro was shocking me and overheating? my new toshiba m7 tablet is running cool, stable and I can write on the screen... and its not electricuting me... nice one!
sorry, just had to take that jab... i mean i read the transcript of the keynote and it sounded like a silly child with some serious insecruites..... sheesh.. stop embarassing yourselves. every feature they rolled out has been available for windows or linux for years... LAME!
im already running vista SOLID months before 10.5 is even out?

peace yall.

veggieryan wrote:definately on par with osx and more stable than 10.4.7 in my experience....

Just curious, what stability issues have you encountered running 10.4.7?

veggieryan wrote:im already running vista SOLID months before 10.5 is even out?

peace yall.

That seems to be a bit of an odd comment... how long have you been waiting

Actually, nevermind.

Hope you are enjoying Vista beta. I definitely wont buy it, but I am interested to see how everything plays out with the new MS operating system.

Best.

Vista is definitely an upgrade that makes sense for Windows-using musicians as it has an entirely new audio subsystem. Up until now Windows has needed a third party 'hack' called ASIO to get decent audio performance but probably won't anymore, provided sound card manufacterers start writing drivers.. OS X has had this for three-four years, Linux for a little longer, I think, (not to mention BeOS or the Amiga!) so it's about time, too...

How much more RAM than XP does Vista need?

I'm planning to purchase my new laptop in the phase where the preinstalled OS is XP, but they include a free Vista upgrade. (have heard October/November)

That way I can stay on XP until the drivers are there and the patches are there for Vista, and 64 bit software has emerged. Then I'll hop over. Because two years from now Vista is gonna be the only game in town, like it or not.

Alien Leg wrote:How much more RAM than XP does Vista need?

http://www.microsoft.com/technet/window ... tarpc.mspx

Microsoft says 512Mb base, 1Gb recommended. I've also heard that aero (the new user interface crap in vista) won't run unless your system passes a certain number of hardware requirements.

need tinyVista

sqook, thanks for the review, it seems now Vista is going on a much better path . I'm still worried because of the excessive hardware needed for it to run (a lappie with 1GB ram and XP does just fine for audio work, and vista will require that just to run the O/S?).

I tried researching a bit regarding the new audio subsystem, but couldn't find much info, particularly regardin real world use of it.

At the nuendo forums they mention that Vista will have more precision for real time operations, with lowest minimum latencies, wich is only good for us
http://www.nuendo.com/phpbb2/viewtopic. ... f2ec6954ea

Then there's blog of this guy at MSDN that talks about the new audio subsystem. Some quotes:

It's also become clear that while the audio quality in Windows is just fine for normal users, pro-audio enthusiasts are less than happy with the native audio infrastructure. We've made a bunch of changes to the infrastructure to support pro-audio apps, but those were mostly focused around providing mechanisms for those apps to bypass the audio infrastructure.

...

The first (and biggest) change we made was to move the entire audio stack out of the kernel and into user mode. Pre-Vista, the audio stack lived in a bunch of different kernel mode device drivers, including sysaudio.sys, kmixer.sys, wdmaud.sys, redbook.sys, etc. In Vista and beyond, the only kernel mode drivers for audio are the actual audio drivers (and portcls.sys, the high level audio port driver).

Unfortunately I can't seem to find any info regarding if there will be a decent alternative to ASIO or other third party protocols that is built into the OS, not to mention stuff like soundflower or IAC, which the MAC guys have had for quite a time...

tomperson wrote:sqook, thanks for the review, it seems now Vista is going on a much better path . I'm still worried because of the excessive hardware needed for it to run (a lappie with 1GB ram and XP does just fine for audio work, and vista will require that just to run the O/S?).

Agreed, but hey, it's the price of progress, I guess. Regardless, I have a feeling that I'll be disabling aero from day 1 of my vista "experience".

I tried researching a bit regarding the new audio subsystem, but couldn't find much info, particularly regardin real world use of it.

If you're interested in learning more, here is a rather lengthy discussion from some MS devs about the new features in Vista's audio handling.

tomperson wrote: I'm still worried because of the excessive hardware needed for it to run (a lappie with 1GB ram and XP does just fine for audio work, and vista will require that just to run the O/S?).
.

but didnt that guy earlier say he got 64ms latency and did all that email internet etc shit at the same time?

1GB is pretty much the norm these days - Laptops might only ship with less, but if you're doing more than just officey stuff 1GB is normal - none of the PC specs the 64ms guy had were that far out

Exactly, 1GB is the norm, but with that you can do all you need, OS+Audio apps. It seems that Vista alone will eat the first 1GB of ram, so to work decently you should have...2GB? That was my idea. Maybe I'm wrong (and i hope I am) but something tells me that it won't be like that.

And that brings me back to my first post, I feel like we audio nerds don't need a lot of what's thrown into the OS these days. Unless we do office work and audio work on the same machine at the same time which (for me at least) is a big NO NO.

veggieryan wrote:Hey gang,
check the live 5 performance test thread to see my results with vista and audio.
the performance is AMAZING!
i am at 64 samples of latency and surfing the net, outlook for email, photoshopping plus many other apps open with no pops or clicks.
this is a huge leap forward.
its fast, stable and sexy. definately on par with osx and more stable than 10.4.7 in my experience....
plus all my NI software works!
i tried to watch the wwdc keynote to see all the pc bashing but quicktime wouldnt even stream correctly.. what else is new?
perhaps apple should spend a little less time bashing vista... maybe they could look into why my old macbook pro was shocking me and overheating? my new toshiba m7 tablet is running cool, stable and I can write on the screen... and its not electricuting me... nice one!
sorry, just had to take that jab... i mean i read the transcript of the keynote and it sounded like a silly child with some serious insecruites..... sheesh.. stop embarassing yourselves. every feature they rolled out has been available for windows or linux for years... LAME!
im already running vista SOLID months before 10.5 is even out?

peace yall.

veggieryan - can you say what the specs are on your machine?

Not to sound all high and mighty here but I have to say that when I started making music with computers it was on windows 3.1

It crashed, and getting my Digital Audio Labs CardD+ sound card to work with out problems was often a huge pain in the ass. 98 was nicer to look at and quite good for audio overall. 2ooo was most likley my fave os for audio, then people stoped making drivers and updates for it. And now it is XP. So XP, well it is great and it is crap all at the same time. It is very solid and flexible. Over all I like it outside of the way it deals with IRQ's. I am very much looking forward to Vista. I dont think that I will leap off of xp to go there but windows needs an update in a big way. I will most likley give it a year or so before I jump but I know how I get when it comes to new a new OS.

well, I used to write programs in Basic that would make a dot go from one corner of the screen to another on a Spextravideo in the 80s, and that seemed cool.

I could write a program that was a clock.

I even got it to beep for all notes of the scale by pressing keys on the keyboard.

All of that shit was cool to me once.

So I Like all of these computers, because they can do a fuck of alot more than move a dot from one corner of the bloody screen to the other.