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Re: Why can't we change the order of return tracks?
Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2021 5:40 pm
by jonljacobi
Having to rejigger every send is not an insignificant amount of work. I wish you could do it, but I suppose they just don't feel it's a priority. And someone is not necessarily a fanboy if they don't agree about the importance of a feature. Just like they're not necessarily a whiner if they complain about something that you can easily work around.
Re: Why can't we change the order of return tracks?
Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2021 6:45 pm
by Scoox
jonljacobi wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 5:40 pm
Having to rejigger every send is not an insignificant amount of work. I wish you could do it, but I suppose they just don't feel it's a priority. And someone is not necessarily a fanboy if they don't agree about the importance of a feature. Just like they're not necessarily a whiner if they complain about something that you can easily work around.
I use the term fanboy to refer to users who've only ever used one DAW and act like their DAW is just perfect (which no piece of software ever written is), to the point that they are able to turn any flaw into an advantage
I can understand that moving around return tracks is more resource intensive than moving audio and MIDI tracks, because the send knobs need to be shuffled around to match but Live can already do this to some extent, as I said, because it lets you insert return tracks in between existing return tracks, and it has no trouble shuffling send knobs. To me this seems like something that they intended to implement a long time ago but never got around to doing.
Re: Why can't we change the order of return tracks?
Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2021 7:47 pm
by slow.robot
Scoox wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 6:45 pm
jonljacobi wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 5:40 pm
Having to rejigger every send is not an insignificant amount of work. I wish you could do it, but I suppose they just don't feel it's a priority. And someone is not necessarily a fanboy if they don't agree about the importance of a feature. Just like they're not necessarily a whiner if they complain about something that you can easily work around.
I use the term fanboy to refer to users who've only ever used one DAW and act like their DAW is just perfect (which no piece of software ever written is), to the point that they are able to turn any flaw into an advantage
I can understand that moving around return tracks is more resource intensive than moving audio and MIDI tracks, because the send knobs need to be shuffled around to match but Live can already do this to some extent, as I said, because it lets you insert return tracks in between existing return tracks, and it has no trouble shuffling send knobs. To me this seems like something that they intended to implement a long time ago but never got around to doing.
not sure it should be that difficult—reordering the return tracks themselves is a UI change—in order to allow that to translate from within the tracks you’re sending from, you don’t necessarily need to reorder anything, as long as a label on the knob matches the track you’re sending to.
Re: Why can't we change the order of return tracks?
Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:21 pm
by jonljacobi
I never said it would be difficult, just a lot of work. You have to add a layer of abstraction to everything involved. I'd be happy if they did it.
There's a lot of things they could do that I'd like to see to make operations more consistent. Save return tracks like you can normal tracks, etc. The thing to remember (and yes, I know it's a pain and more work) is simply to use racks. Then you can drag the racks back and forth and rename. Not ideal, but it will scratch the itch.
Re: Why can't we change the order of return tracks?
Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2021 6:50 pm
by Scoox
jonljacobi wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:21 pm
The thing to remember (and yes, I know it's a pain and more work) is simply to use racks. Then you can drag the racks back and forth and rename. Not ideal, but it will scratch the itch.
You can drag the racks, but you'd still have to adjust the send knobs, which would be too tedious.
Re: Why can't we change the order of return tracks?
Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 12:38 am
by jonljacobi
True.
Re: Why can't we change the order of return tracks?
Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 8:42 am
by Scoox
Well,
I requested this a while ago on Centercode, only 17 people up-voted it. The top-most voted feature requests are all "big features" like ARA integration, bounce in place, etc, and Ableton tend to implement only a handful of what's requested through major iterations of the software, so I very much doubt requests like this will ever get done.
Other things that have been requested include:
- More return tracks (currently max is 12)
- Scrollable return tracks
- Per-track pre- and post- sends (currently all sends are either pre- or post-)
As it stands Live is not a serious mixing environment.
Re: Why can't we change the order of return tracks?
Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:33 pm
by jonljacobi
I seriously use it for mixing.
Re: Why can't we change the order of return tracks?
Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2021 1:27 pm
by Der_Landvogt
Scoox wrote: ↑Tue Aug 17, 2021 8:42 am
Other things that have been requested include:
- More return tracks (currently max is 12)
- Scrollable return tracks
- Per-track pre- and post- sends (currently all sends are either pre- or post-)
+1 on all of the above!
One other thing I'd really like to have is the ability to move the return tracks around and have them in between the "normal" tracks. I get that it has advantages to always have them on the right and that could very well stay the default setting. But if I have my vocals on track one it would be great to have the vocal return right below it.
I sometimes do this with empty tracks that I then send the audio to but of course you can't change the sent amount in that case....
Re: Why can't we change the order of return tracks?
Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:46 pm
by tomgulbinas
When I realized that changing the order of return tracks wasn't possible I thought I must be mistaken.
How could something so basic not be possible?
Please add this feature, I know it seems inconsequential but it is important for many of us here.
Re: Why can't we change the order of return tracks?
Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2023 1:08 pm
by chapelier fou
Bump.
I just spent 30 minutes copying/pasting send values after reordering return tracks.
Re: Why can't we change the order of return tracks?
Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2023 4:31 pm
by Scoox
chapelier fou wrote: ↑Mon Jun 12, 2023 1:08 pm
Bump.
I just spent 30 minutes copying/pasting send values after reordering return tracks.
Wait for someone to tell you that back in the day that's how it was with hardware mixers
Re: Why can't we change the order of return tracks?
Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2023 4:40 pm
by Scoox
Der_Landvogt wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 1:27 pm
One other thing I'd really like to have is the ability to move the return tracks around and have them in between the "normal" tracks. I get that it has advantages to always have them on the right and that could very well stay the default setting. But if I have my vocals on track one it would be great to have the vocal return right below it.
I sometimes do this with empty tracks that I then send the audio to but of course you can't change the sent amount in that case....
Yes, this would be very useful from an organizational point of view. Drum racks have their own return tracks that can be collapsed out of sight if required. This helps keep things that belong together right next to each other. I think it's time to ditch some old paradigms. To quote Stephen Fry's words:
I believe one of the greatest human failings is to prefer to be right than to be effective. Political correctness is always obsessed with how right it is without thinking how effective it might be.
Re: Why can't we change the order of return tracks?
Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 11:10 am
by chris harbin
Return tracks NEED love currently.
One thing for me is that I'd like to save "presets" like audio/midi tracks, in particular like both of this as "default" state.
Re: Why can't we change the order of return tracks?
Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 3:21 pm
by dougtheguy
This is definitely a should have been. I sometimes set up a set with returns a subs. We should be able to organize and group returns as we wish.