OT - Republican Democrat - Spot the difference?

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
subterFUSE
Posts: 1557
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 11:04 pm
Location: Winter Park, FL

Post by subterFUSE » Fri Oct 20, 2006 2:29 pm

M. Bréqs wrote:
A liberal would say that a proper role for government is to regulate and oversee people's lives. Liberals say it's proper for hardworking people to subsidize lazy people (such as through unaccountable welfare systems), to remove people's rights to make their own financial decisions (such as forcing healthy non-smoking non-drinking athletic people to pay for the medical results of other's self destructive vices), and by enforcing racist and sexist policies (like hiring quotas or lowering university entrance requirements for people based on the colour of their skin).

A conservative would say that a proper role for government is to subtly protect of the system that has brought us all freedom and prosperity. Conservatives say it's proper for government to ensure that we have a healthy economy and the capability in the long term future of providing essential services (by avoiding crippling taxation and restraining government spending), that people have the freedom to worship, but that people also have a social responsiblity to contribute to the economic and social wellbeing of society.
...Yes this definition is biased. However, my point is that your oringinal definition of liberal vs conservative was also biased just in the other direction.


Very true on the bias point. That was why I questioned where he got his quote above.
M-Tech D900T laptop, 17" WSXGA+ wide-screen, Intel Pentium 4 3.4 GHz HT (600 series) 2 MB cache, 2048 RAM (Dual Channel DDR2 PC4200 533 MHz), Dual hard drives: 80 gig x 2 = 160 gig SATA 5400 rpm (RAID 0 config)
Korg Zero 8 mixer/soundcard/MIDI

kabuki
Posts: 1893
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2003 11:26 pm
Location: ATX, fyi

Post by kabuki » Fri Oct 20, 2006 2:40 pm

Until the recent "Bushwacking" of the Republican party, conservative meant "Resistant to change". A true conservative believes in LESS Federal government intervention, whether it be in business or moral intervention, and stronger State-level regulation. I'm not exactly sure when, but the Religeous right hijacked the Republican party (methinks it was due to Roe v. Wade) and have somehow reversed their party's angle of government. (Who would have guessed that the Founding Fathers weere so right in demanding separation of Church and State?)

Many believe George W. to be a very unconservative by definition due to his heavy attack on civil liberies (wiretapping, illegal war torture, etc.) at the Executive level. Truth be told, Dubya and his neo-con zombies would subvert the entire Constitution to make a buck, pay less in taxes or make abortion illegal. (I have noticed that most neo-cons were converted due to one single issue, be it taxes, imigration, abortion, and then bought into the rest of the neo-agenda to cover the talkling points. (Again, just an observation).

Nowadays, Right and Left are equally radical, just in opposite directions.
15" PB 2.5 Ghz, 4 Gig RAM, 750 GB HD, Live 9 still no cue points or program change messages?!?. Doesn't do shit.

muscleandhate
Posts: 693
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 5:54 pm

Post by muscleandhate » Fri Oct 20, 2006 3:00 pm

kineticUk wrote:Thanks knotkranky..
Yeah so I am more liberal or maybe populist. I don't like hardcore conservatism but do believe the government has to sort out social problems (Thats a bit conservative then?).
It is actually very interesting...thanks alot.
:)
Just beware that the defitions concerning 'liberal' and 'conservative' were very simplistic. 'Conservatism' and 'Liberalism' are just generic terms for a general set of ideas about the world, in actual fact there are different schools of a political idealogy within 'liberalism' of different theories with many contradictions. The same applys to conservativism.

For example, some liberals believe in negative freedom whilst others accept positive freedom. To say your a liberal means nothing at all, are you talking about laissez faire economics or your feelings about the role of the state? etc.

With regard to the difference between the democrats and the republicans, I'd say it is marginal. Above all else both parties strongly adhere towards the Corporate sector of the US economy, most idealogy can be disregarded in the face of the dollar. Both parties understand democracy is a strange way, seemingly geared towards the rich. You can quite easily define the Republican party as liberal, neo-liberal that is. Neo-liberalism is an idealogy that essentially compounded liberal thinking and morality into an economic doctrine of individual choice and unregulated trade... I could go on about this for hours, suffice to say most people who are involed politics and who discuss politics actually grasp a very limited understanding of what the hell they mean.

subterFUSE
Posts: 1557
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 11:04 pm
Location: Winter Park, FL

Post by subterFUSE » Fri Oct 20, 2006 3:03 pm

kabuki wrote:Until the recent "Bushwacking" of the Republican party, conservative meant "Resistant to change". A true conservative believes in LESS Federal government intervention, whether it be in business or moral intervention, and stronger State-level regulation. I'm not exactly sure when, but the Religeous right hijacked the Republican party (methinks it was due to Roe v. Wade) and have somehow reversed their party's angle of government. (Who would have guessed that the Founding Fathers weere so right in demanding separation of Church and State?)

Many believe George W. to be a very unconservative by definition due to his heavy attack on civil liberies (wiretapping, illegal war torture, etc.) at the Executive level. Truth be told, Dubya and his neo-con zombies would subvert the entire Constitution to make a buck, pay less in taxes or make abortion illegal. (I have noticed that most neo-cons were converted due to one single issue, be it taxes, imigration, abortion, and then bought into the rest of the neo-agenda to cover the talkling points. (Again, just an observation).

Nowadays, Right and Left are equally radical, just in opposite directions.

Well, I think that you're demonizing and stereotyping a lot of people. There are a lot of people who are conservative for more than 1 reason, as you put it. Some conservative are not religious nuts. I, for one, happen to be a conservative who doesn't believe in God. I am also pro-choice. I am for funding stem-cell research. Where do I fit in your "religious right neo-con zombie" classification system?
M-Tech D900T laptop, 17" WSXGA+ wide-screen, Intel Pentium 4 3.4 GHz HT (600 series) 2 MB cache, 2048 RAM (Dual Channel DDR2 PC4200 533 MHz), Dual hard drives: 80 gig x 2 = 160 gig SATA 5400 rpm (RAID 0 config)
Korg Zero 8 mixer/soundcard/MIDI

kabuki
Posts: 1893
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2003 11:26 pm
Location: ATX, fyi

Post by kabuki » Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:31 pm

subterFUSE wrote:
kabuki wrote:... most neo-cons were converted... (Again, just an observation).

Well, I think that you're demonizing and stereotyping a lot of people. There are a lot of people who are conservative for more than 1 reason, as you put it. Some conservative are not religious nuts. I, for one, happen to be a conservative who doesn't believe in God. I am also pro-choice. I am for funding stem-cell research. Where do I fit in your "religious right neo-con zombie" classification system?

"Most", not "all". You don't sound like a Neo-con, but a true conservative. I don't know you. Maybe you are. Don't really care. And, yeah, I AM demonizing a lot of people. I am amazed at the mindlessness of so many people, based on their fear, biggotry, and hate in the name of piety. And before you jump to any conclusions, beware that you don't know me any more that I know you... I well may be a Christian-former-conservative-that-resents-the-religeous-Right-pandering-GOP-for-betraying-the-Constitution-and the-freedoms-that-are-inherent-therein. You wouldn't be wrong in assuming I am. Seems to me it wouldn't take much of an effort to see the mistakes we are prone to make as humans and atone for them, let alone just simply acknowlege them. Seems to me the Neo-cons are hellbent on refusing theirs.

I was wrong in the past. I just acknowlege it. I try to atone. I really hope I am wrong about the state of affairs. God, I hope I am wrong. I don't think I am. Time will tell.
15" PB 2.5 Ghz, 4 Gig RAM, 750 GB HD, Live 9 still no cue points or program change messages?!?. Doesn't do shit.

knotkranky
Posts: 4336
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2006 7:08 pm
Location: la

Post by knotkranky » Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:36 pm

sF, i got that quote off some forum. It was intended for a general 101 simplification and insight. Not the be all.

hyerstay
Posts: 234
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2003 1:42 am
Location: Vermont

USA Political Parties

Post by hyerstay » Fri Oct 20, 2006 5:37 pm

Conservative does not equal Republican and Liberal does not equal Democrat. There are Conservative Democrats and Liberal Republicans.

If you want to know what each party currently stands for, you need to look at their platform and their membership.

Democratic Party
Republican Party - aka the Grand Old Party

Personally, i have supported members of both major parties, and independents. I consider myself an independent and a Libertarian. This means I support having a small, fiscally-responsible government that does not intrude into the the private lives of its citizens. I believe recreational drugs should be legalized, at least marijuana, and I don't believe the government is the best vessel to solve social ills or preach moral absolutes. I believe spending and taxation should be as low as possible to maintain the essential functions of government and allow citizens the chance to decide where to spend their money for the things that they believe in.

Libertarian Party

jason

M. Bréqs
Posts: 1479
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2005 6:02 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Post by M. Bréqs » Fri Oct 20, 2006 6:01 pm

subterFUSE wrote:Well, I think that you're demonizing and stereotyping a lot of people. There are a lot of people who are conservative for more than 1 reason, as you put it. Some conservative are not religious nuts. I, for one, happen to be a conservative who doesn't believe in God. I am also pro-choice. I am for funding stem-cell research. Where do I fit in your "religious right neo-con zombie" classification system?

Word to that.

I'm left on a lot of issues (personal freedoms, seperation of church and state, environment), right on others (foreign policy, justice, fiscal issues) - but I see the left as being generally less tolerant of disagreement than the right these days. Disagree with a right-winger, and you're intellectually courageous / avant garde / politically correct.

If you disagree with a leftist, then suddenly you're racist / sexist / homophobic (or funnier yet, they call you "hitler" - what a farce, and an insult to actual holocaust victims).

Sure the right can engage in this behaviour, but far less often and to a much lesser degree (at least in Canada). Here, if the Right were to use the Left's common tactics, it would be decried as absolute fascism.

I've seen demonstrations at universities demanding that the administration refuse a speaker permission to even show up. No intelligent debate to refute the speaker's points, just get him out of here and don't let anybody hear him at all. There are too many examples of leftists not debating, but merely screaming their dogma louder and demanding that dissenting voices shut the fuck up.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/s ... e=&no_ads=

Why not debate and challenge instead? Instead they just scream and smash stuff so that you don't have to address people who think differently. Fucking brilliant that, very mature. I don't recall seeing any right-wing riots in the news in recent memory...

For that reason, I usually support right-wingers in public discourse (like this forum)... I guess I like to fight the intolerance and intellectual bullying I see manifest on the Left (particularly on this forum), even though I agree with the left at least 50-60% of the time.

kabuki
Posts: 1893
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2003 11:26 pm
Location: ATX, fyi

Post by kabuki » Fri Oct 20, 2006 7:27 pm

M. Bréqs wrote:Here, if the Right were to use the Left's common tactics, it would be decried as absolute fascism.
Here (the United States), the Right DOES does decry anyone who disagrees as "fascists" (Rumsfeld) and "Traitors". THAT is true fascism.

Man, this is a POINTLESS debate. I live in the thick of this shit and am done talking to brick walls about it.

Enjoy your delusion. :roll:
15" PB 2.5 Ghz, 4 Gig RAM, 750 GB HD, Live 9 still no cue points or program change messages?!?. Doesn't do shit.

kineticUk
Posts: 1531
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:37 am

Post by kineticUk » Fri Oct 20, 2006 7:33 pm

This is getting deeper and deeper...alot of technical politics talk, which I must admit I do not understand. Whats going on?
MacBook MacOS Live 9.7.1 Max for Live Push Logic

kabuki
Posts: 1893
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2003 11:26 pm
Location: ATX, fyi

Post by kabuki » Fri Oct 20, 2006 7:39 pm

kineticUk wrote:This is getting deeper and deeper...alot of technical politics talk, which I must admit I do not understand. Whats going on?
Basically speaking: Shit has gotten so bad with the world that even folks that hold basically the same beliefs are hating on each other. Some don't see the mess and others do.

This alll blows.

I only hope the Dems win back congress and throw the scoundrels in prison.
15" PB 2.5 Ghz, 4 Gig RAM, 750 GB HD, Live 9 still no cue points or program change messages?!?. Doesn't do shit.

knotkranky
Posts: 4336
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2006 7:08 pm
Location: la

Post by knotkranky » Fri Oct 20, 2006 9:34 pm

kabuki wrote: I only hope the Dems win back congress and throw the scoundrels in prison.
This is would be the best of my hopes. With the dems in the majority, measures exposing these evil doers are a possibility.

mikemc
Posts: 5464
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 2:14 pm
Location: Maryland USA

Post by mikemc » Fri Oct 20, 2006 9:44 pm

kabuki wrote:
kineticUk wrote:This is getting deeper and deeper...alot of technical politics talk, which I must admit I do not understand. Whats going on?
Basically speaking: Shit has gotten so bad with the world that even folks that hold basically the same beliefs are hating on each other. Some don't see the mess and others do.
yeh. I'd say that in the U.S. the words 'liberal' and 'conservative' have become labels one side throws at the other and therefore have become separated from their actual meaning: liberal mean 'over-trusting of human nature, immoral and fiscally irresponsible' and conservative means 'close-minded, selfish and bigoted'.

There have been a lot of people that seem to be seeking the label of 'true conservative' lately, I'm guessing this is because this gives them the creds to call everybody else 'liberals'.
UTENZIL a tool... of the muse.

volum
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2003 12:45 am
Location: Los Androides, USA, EARTH
Contact:

Post by volum » Fri Oct 20, 2006 11:33 pm

Religiosity in the conservative movement started during the Regan administration.

They called it their awakening, and when in 1994 they overtook both houses they dubbed it their "contract with America" they would clean up Washington and restore moral dignity to the country.

There was once a time when the basic tenets of Republicans and Democrats were completely reversed. During the 1930's most of the African-Americans supported the Republican party. But due to the "New Deal" relief programs laid out by the Roosevelt's, the Democrats took the reigns of being the party "of the people".


These days, with the differences growing slimmer and slimmer, and the amount of corporate corruption growing larger and larger, it seems that there are two false roles that each party places on itself.

"The CEO party" - Republicans
"The people's party" - Democrats


But, in the immortal words of the late Bill Hicks:

"Wait a minute, there's one guy holdin' up both puppets!"


I think the difference between a Dem and Repub are closer to the difference between a "Freedom Fighter" and a "Terrorist". It all depends on which team you're rooting for.
compuphonic_machines_program_my_beats
++++++++++++++http://www.volsoc.com

Meef Chaloin
Posts: 2164
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:09 pm

Post by Meef Chaloin » Fri Oct 20, 2006 11:41 pm

knotkranky wrote:There are many civil servants killing themselves to change what is wrong with our government. Follow the money.
hehe there's also quite a few civil servants getting themselves killed to change what is wrong! :lol: 8O

money's definitely where its at though

Post Reply