A question for all you mac users...

darkcatt · Post by **darkcatt** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:19 pm

they just really like there white Pc's

intel maxtor and micron all the same guts as an HP

but the Mac vs pc argument is old esp since its about Microsoft vs OSX

its all software now that they quit using IBM chips. HO HUM just give me Linux and everyone can go burn in hell, to bad its open code so there is no money in it

Tarekith · Post by **Tarekith** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:21 pm

Because the disk formatting system that Apple uses (HFS+) is made to eliminate files getting fragmented in the first place.

HOWEVER

I hear that this is only applicable to files less than 20MB in size, so take that as you will. There are defrag apps for OSX too, namely iDefrag. For kicks I ran it once to see if it made any difference, and while it did find some of my larger files were fragmented, it made no difference in the performance of the laptop that I could see. Or should I say, defragmenting an XP based system can have a very noticeable increase in performance at times, this is less likely in OSX.

Lack of defragging is really the tiniest part of why I like OSX better though, there's so many better reasons for me. Mainly it's just that you don't need to track down files all over your system when you install programs. All your preference files are in folder, all your plug ins, all your apps, etc. It's just far easier to find what you're looking for, and you never need to look at the actual system files if you don't want to. Far different from XP based systems where installing an app can place files all over the XP partition, not to mention the registry. Oh yes, no more MS Genuine Advantage confirmation dialogues when installing drivers

The first time I installed an OSX app, I was like "that's it?". It was just so easy and fast compared to what I was used to

Both OS systems have their benefits though, I don't think either is better than the other. But they definitely are different enough that I can see why people are polarized. XP to me is for people who like to manage files and program THEIR way. They want things organized different than the OS wants you to use (ie, My Documents folder). OSX is more for people who DON'T want to manage this kind of stuff. They're content to let the files install where they want, and to adopt Apple's storage scheme.

I find I spend less time managing my computer (updates, driver installs/conflicts, etc) with OSX. Though I had to learn to adopt the Apple way of working to get that freedom, which is where most people have a hang up I bet.

NorthernMonkey · Post by **NorthernMonkey** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:28 pm

Tarekith wrote:Because the disk formatting system that Apple uses (HFS+) is made to eliminate files getting fragmented in the first place.

HOWEVER

I hear that this is only applicable to files less than 20MB in size, so take that as you will. There are defrag apps for OSX too, namely iDefrag. For kicks I ran it once to see if it made any difference, and while it did find some of my larger files were fragmented, it made no difference in the performance of the laptop that I could see. Or should I say, defragmenting an XP based system can have a very noticeable increase in performance at times, this is less likely in OSX.

Lack of defragging is really the tiniest part of why I like OSX better though, there's so many better reasons for me. Mainly it's just that you don't need to track down files all over your system when you install programs. All your preference files are in folder, all your plug ins, all your apps, etc. It's just far easier to find what you're looking for, and you never need to look at the actual system files if you don't want to. Far different from XP based systems where installing an app can place files all over the XP partition, not to mention the registry. Oh yes, no more MS Genuine Advantage confirmation dialogues when installing drivers The first time I installed an OSX app, I was like "that's it?". It was just so easy and fast compared to what I was used to

Both OS systems have their benefits though, I don't think either is better than the other. But they definitely are different enough that I can see why people are polarized. XP to me is for people who like to manage files and program THEIR way. They want things organized different than the OS wants you to use (ie, My Documents folder). OSX is more for people who DON'T want to manage this kind of stuff. They're content to let the files install where they want, and to adopt Apple's storage scheme.

I find I spend less time managing my computer (updates, driver installs/conflicts, etc) with OSX. Though I had to learn to adopt the Apple way of working to get that freedom, which is where most people have a hang up I bet.

Cheers Tarekith, some good info in there.

nylarch · Post by **nylarch** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:08 pm

I think their vertical strategy of limiting hardware choices but providing better integration between OS and hardware really works for music. It results in less flexibility in building a box and higher costs but the OS just seems to fit the hardware and be really well tuned right out of the box.

I often compare it to Reason that way - yes it doesn't support VST but it is rock solid and very low CPU.

Windows has a great strategy for what they do - sell operating systems and software. They need to run on every hardware combination on the planet and they do that pretty damn well but its never going to be as tight as OSX. As a parting gift they get their 95% market share.

Also I'm amazed at how many great little one developer projects are useful and wornderful for the Mac. Quicksilver and TextMate to name 2. You can really customize your workflow in a way that you can't on Windows. And the bash shell as well.

Sales Dude McBoob · Post by **Sales Dude McBoob** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:28 pm

Girl From North Monkey,

You are so a future Mac user. As soon as you don't work with that annoying dude anymore- and you won't make a mental assimilation between yourself and him and computer choices- you will have a glowing piece of fruit in front of you one day. Totally.

NorthernMonkey · Post by **NorthernMonkey** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:55 pm

Sales Dude McBoob wrote:Girl From North Monkey,

You are so a future Mac user. As soon as you don't work with that annoying dude anymore- and you won't make a mental assimilation between yourself and him and computer choices- you will have a glowing piece of fruit in front of you one day. Totally.

i take it you're in the mac club McBoob?

rbmonosylabik · Post by **rbmonosylabik** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 4:29 pm

For me it's something along the lines of what Tarekith says. I really don't like getting into tech support mode while working on music (or anything for that matter), but Windows just seems to excell at rubbing me the wrong way.

Sure, it's fun to say "What if I install this app so my comp can do this?" or "how can I tweak this machine to do what I want it to?", but it's not cool when the machine makes you run a drivers installer for some hardware that was working just fine the las time the machine was on 3 times for some reason no one can explain FOUND NEW HARDWARE GODDAMIT!!!! [/rant]

I know my way around a Mac pretty well, but I am by no means a PC power user, and I usually find myself scratching my head when a problem comes up, but with how frustrating and slow Windows makes it, I have no desire to be one left.

mohler · Post by **mohler** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 4:36 pm

Nothern......

I'm going to chime in here and try to be reasonable and fair and not to sound too smug.

I have spent 15 years of my life as a PC user, 10 years as an IT professional supporting desktops, apps, networks, removing viruses, spyware, telling stupid user (i.e. users who would not even have the intelligence to know how to post on our beloved forum) how to do X Y & Z on the PC.

I've built PCs & installed every version of windows more times than I care to remember. I've built and spec'd networks and servers from the ground up, I've done a ton of Multimedia & web development.

On the music front I've use Logic 5 and Live v1/2/3 on the PC. Totally miss SoundForge.

When I got out of IT once and for all I just wanted to focus on making music so I sold my decks and most of my studio gear and bought a Powerbook, i didn't care that it was wasn't as powerful.

I was so fed up of fixing other peoples computers that I just wanted to be able to start up my computer and make music, I don't want to have to waste my time fixing my computer, reinstalling my OS updating virus checkers, removing spy ware etc. At the time I couldn't afford to have 2 computers so one would be dedicated to music.

On the inside PCs and Macs are almost exactly the same, same memory, disks and now same processors & of course they fail, I just had my disk let go in my powerbook but a life time of support has never let me forget that backing up is critical.

Of course OSX is very different to windows and honestly it is much more stable, the macbook that I am typing on has an uptime of 42 day, think of how much time that has saved me in just starting the damn thing up! Also I never have to explain to my wife how to do some thing more than once. It's not that she is very computer savvy it really it much more intuitive.

Over the past 2.5 years of using my mac live I have never had it fail on me once, not even a blip, nothing just solid performance, I did try to use PCs before but I really would have the confidence to bet my reputation on it.

I've only reinstalled my OS once apart and that was to upgrade to Tiger and I don't know how Apple did it but my Powerbook was quicker with the new OS. When MS upgrade you almost need a new PC if not more RAM & disk storage. Even when my disk failed I didn't have to reinstall, I just cloned the backup image of my disk and I was back to where I last backed up my drive. No fluting around, no having to re-authorise Windows. which was good as I had been working on a project for a client so I only lost the time I was with out a disk!

On another front, re-sale value is truely impressive. The first mac I owned was a 600 MHz G3 (blue & white tower) that I got for €100 from a client who's office network I was fixing. I came with a 21" monitor. All I did as add some RAM (which I had spare in a box) and I upgraded to OSX which cost me another €100 I then sold it for €350 (with out the 21" monitor) and the guy who bought it genuinely thought it was a great deal. I was also give an even older beige G3 with a printer which I installed Yellow Dog (linux) on and sold for €200.

Even though my Powerbook is now almost 3 years old the current final sale prices on ebay are in the £500-600 stg range. Which is pretty good in my reckoning. Most 3 year old pc laptops are just about good enough to prop fire doors open at the office and certainly don't have a chance of running Vista with any degree of usefulness.

To be honest it's the little things that make the difference, the attention to detail & the innovation. It is the ethos of Apple that pervades every aspect of the mac and OS X.

Obviously for me my killer app is Logic which is why I use the mac. If I had a killer app that was wiindows, I wouldn't install it on my intel macbook, i would rather buy a cheap PC and use it on there.

SubFunk · Post by **SubFunk** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 4:47 pm

supporting all the arguments pro mac, put it this way, if i ever would be forced to work under windows / vista [or any other microschrott product] for making / producing music, i would 100% [and i sware to the grave of my mother!] move back to ALL hardware with a hardware sequencer, to create a hussle computer / it / tweak / install drivers / etc. FREE enviroment to go on with my work.

Sales Dude McBoob · Post by **Sales Dude McBoob** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 5:18 pm

NorthernMonkey wrote:
Sales Dude McBoob wrote:Girl From North Monkey,

You are so a future Mac user. As soon as you don't work with that annoying dude anymore- and you won't make a mental assimilation between yourself and him and computer choices- you will have a glowing piece of fruit in front of you one day. Totally.
i take it you're in the mac club McBoob?

Totes. I have a dual 1.8 G5 tower and a PowerBook. I used to use a frankenstein PC running Sonar until the Master Blaster virus shut us down.

Now I want to ditch my PowerBook because it can't take what I'm throwing at it. The G5 is still badass.

Why did I have to read in that Computer Music issue that the pin configuration on the new Core2 chips have been designed so you can swap them out for the Quad Core chips when they become available? Why???? I didn't need to know that. I really really didn't...

Oh man. MacBoob want MacBook.

kennerb · Post by **kennerb** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 5:38 pm

Tarekith wrote: The stuff you don't need to see, you don't, the stuff that you do need to access a lot is easy to get to.

As much as I enjoy my mac I would have to say this is one of my biggest beefs with Apple. Just the fact that someone is deciding what I need to see or how my workflow should be dictated kind of steams me.

djadonis206 · Post by **djadonis206** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 5:44 pm

I posted this in another thread I started (thank you very much)

funny...

it's from the local free newspaper The Seattle Weekly

ask an uptight seattleite

I wrote:Ha ha - this guys so funny...I read his articles every week

Dear Uptight Seattleite,

The subject of today's complaint: Mac addicts. I grab a coffee at a shop that has fair-trade java, bringing my own cup to save a dime and a tree. But then I pull out my Dell laptop to jack into the free wireless, and suddenly you can see the cognoscenti looking down their MacBook Pros at me. Hello!?! Windows Vista is paying for all that Madison/Greenlake/Wallingford/Phinney/Belltown gentrification you all seem to be enjoying so much. The Mac and the black turtleneck don't make you an artist. You're still just surfing Craigslist for a cheap couch.

Computing on the Homegrown OS

Dear Computing,

Everyone should certainly feel comfortable with their own personal computing choices. There's no reason why those who choose to wrestle with a clunky Windows machine should be made to feel inferior to those who prefer the sleek and tasteful efficiency of a Macintosh. Maybe Windows people, through no fault of their own, are deaf to the sweet, humming, streamlined beauty that is a Macintosh; the futuristic inevitability of its pristinely glowing form, the intuitive responsiveness of its interface, the way everything "just works"—that might not be for everyone. Mac users, before they judge, should remind themselves that they are, after all, a pretty rarefied group. If you, unlike everyone else in the coffee shop, don't choose to "Think Different," well, good for you. Use that soulless, monopolistic OS with pride!

fyi, I use a PC because I believe in the home team

telekom · Post by **telekom** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 5:52 pm

NorthernMonkey wrote:
Sales Dude McBoob wrote:Girl From North Monkey,

You are so a future Mac user.

Hey Monkey,
I think he's right! You sound like you might be looking to be convinced that macs are worth it. I'm as tired of everyone else here about mac v pc debates. But you pose a good question as to why personally people really feel there is a choice. I can't really say macs are better than pcs. I just know they are better for me. MUCH better.

I first used a mac in 1988 and I've owned a mac since 1996. In that time I've had a Powermac 7200, a Blueberry Imac and now I've got a 1.33 GHz Powerbook. Loved them all. Only ever had two problems. I had to have the 7200 formatted and re-installed because of a 'free' BT internet CDROM which f****d network access by doing some awful things to Open Transport. Then the CDROM drive in this Powerbook stopped working properly after 6 months and was repaired on warranty. Everything else just worked, or I fixed by myself in a few clicks.

During that time I have gained an undeserved reputation for knowing how to 'fix' PCs. At several workplaces I have been asked to sort out problems with PCs which took up HUGE amounts of time. Everything from network problems, wireless access, hard drive failures and program install issues to driver problems, gazillions of viruses, adware, spyware and internet access issues and literally hundreds of issues with Windows.

I even had a workplace where I ran a small recording studio with a G5, and an Ibook and a Powerbook which were used for video editing and office work. They all worked fine and the only time there were problems with the macs were when my colleague would ask "how do I do this...?" and ask something to which the answer was usually "click this and this". Meanwhile, all the other public PCs and office PCs in the place were creaking to a halt, stopping altogether or needing constant attention.

Interestingly I recently spoke to my old boss... turns out no-one else would use the Powerbook after I left cos they felt scared to use it cos it was different from PCs... it ended up in a cupboard.

If Pcs work for you then use them. If they don't, and you don't want to spend your life trying to persuade them to work for you, then a mac may be for you. But I hear that Applecare is pretty useless if you need to get in touch with them. So think twice about that when you go to buy your MacBookPro, Northern Monkey...

Best Wishes

mohler · Post by **mohler** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 6:14 pm

Well put telekom,

Go nothern go... you can do it!

I'm feeling a conversion!!!! Can I get a Witness? (cue Marvin Gaye)

Perhaps us Mac users shouldn't be so smug and self conceited. I promise to try better with my attitude in future.

NorthernMonkey · Post by **NorthernMonkey** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 6:16 pm

telekom wrote:
NorthernMonkey wrote:
Sales Dude McBoob wrote:Girl From North Monkey,

You are so a future Mac user.
Hey Monkey,
I think he's right! You sound like you might be looking to be convinced that macs are worth it. I'm as tired of everyone else here about mac v pc debates. But you pose a good question as to why personally people really feel there is a choice. I can't really say macs are better than pcs. I just know they are better for me. MUCH better.

Thanks for the input, and MacBoob could well be right, maybe I am leaning towards a mac. I've been put off in the past mainly due to fuckwits telling me how 'cool' they are without giving any real answers as to why they are so good, and also because of a certain amount of anti-microsoft spiel, which again is a crap argument - for all their flaws, microsoft have without doubt added a phenomenal amount of advancements within IT in the past (and also produce the .NET development tools I use on a daily basis to earn a living, but that's another story...). However, on the microsoft theme, I think Vista is the biggest pile of shit I've ever seen, completely unnecessary yet will soon be forced on everyone whether they like it or not, so I guess I'm more open to switching working environments. It's just the joining the mac club that makes me feel a bit uneasy, it has a whiff of elitism to it that I'd rather avoid. I'd also have to start from scratch buying all the audio software.