Ableton Forum

thanks for saying so forge, we're not all bad, some of us stay here (other than finacial, home/hearth reasons) because we think we might actually help to set a good example.
In a really interesting ongoing discussion with an old friend, we talk about the realtive merits of being an expatriot vs. staying and trying to help.
I shudder to think what would happen if all of the decent, thoughtful people in america left because they were fed up.
It's like music, the best tunes are always the most inspired, highest reaching in ideals, and also the ones that you stick with to the bitter end, with the original intention intact.

One things for sure....if you have a kid, never ever ever ever tell them you wish they had been aborted...my mom told my brother that, and he never spoke to her again. Anyway...

radialson wrote:Thank you Cory.
I in no way want to stir up conflict or make enemies. That's not my intent. My aim was simply to address the blame shifting and my passion leaked out. Everyone is entitled to both their views and choices. Although I do disagree that it is only a women's issue and that hardship justifies taking innocent life, I do hear where you are coming from and respect you. Others were expressing their views and I was simply expressing mine with stats. That's one good thing about freedom if you want to call it that, we can differ in position yet respect where others stand and not get our heads blown off for doing so.

right on, it's a big big world, big enough at least for a respectful and meritous discussion of sometimes hard issues, thanks for hearing me too.

All you non-US bastards here make me want to go expat myself....but, running is no solution. The thought of bringing a new person into this world seems pretty fucking selfish to me much of the time...

I think americans love hearing news like this, It gives them something to talk about and sensationalize. It satisfies our inherent morbid curiosities. Here in miami there students in highschool who will cry about it and pretend like someone they know died. They will hold ritualistic prayer meetings, and talk about the blood and death in vivid detail, and they will love it!!! It's half human nature/ half desensitization, all media bullshit!!! During hurricanes in florida, news reporters like to stand outside during the heavy down pour and try to "report" on whats going on. There is a song about this kind of thing.


Vicarious- Tool

No prob. I hate when we allow disagreements to become the basis for division whether they be over politics, morals, war, peace, etc. I think America is is more divided now than it has ever been because we haven't learned how to disagree and live with each other. Maybe I'm wrong on that statement, but I feel that though it is not outward now, the wars we fight in our minds with each other would be catastrophic if played out because we can't agree to disagree.

...but then again...I'm incredibly grateful to exist, no matter how shitty life has gotten at times. Personally I would rather exist than not, but not everyone feels that way, and I haven't had to deal with reallly shitty things like war, horrible abuse, torture, extreme poverty, starvation, not having had access to really good acid, etc...

radialson wrote:I think America is is more divided now than it has ever been because we haven't learned how to disagree and live with each other.

How do you agree to disagree when you feel the other person is in control of the situation, and you feel they are doing things that will directly affect you and those you care about in a catastrophic way? What do you do when you agree to disagree, and the other person uses your higher moral stance to completely screw you over?

ethios4 wrote:

radialson wrote:I think America is is more divided now than it has ever been because we haven't learned how to disagree and live with each other.

How do you agree to disagree when you feel the other person is in control of the situation, and you feel they are doing things that will directly affect you and those you care about in a catastrophic way? What do you do when you agree to disagree, and the other person uses your higher moral stance to completely screw you over?

Don't be apathetic about it, but do forgive. Don't know if I gave the answer you were hoping for considering I don't know your particular situation, but that's what I can offer. I am all for justice, but I do believe that it takes more guts and courage to willfully forgive than to violently take out revenge on someone who has wronged you. It's never easy when it hurts. I'll be the first to say that I don't always pass this test.

No personal situation really...just thinking that the disagreements that divide our world are very real in the sense that important things are at stake. For example, I strongly disagree with the policies of the Bush administration, and agreeing to disagree is not satisfactory to me because the Bush administration and I are not at equal levels...ie, "they" can effect massive events that can directly affect me, whereas I cannot affect them in any way. So its almost entirely asssymetric, and agreeing to disagree basically means, to me, that I eat shit and they get to do just about whatever they want.

Likewise, from the perspective of a woman who wants an abortion, the disagreement revolves around the very real situation of whether she brings a person into the world or not, which is something the person making the laws about abortion doesn't have to deal with at all.

Forgiveness is absolutely necessary, but shouldn't turn into apathy...so, yeah, just like you said!:)

I totally hear you. Sadly, our government threw morals out the window a long time ago and countless amounts lives have and continue to be drastically affected by it whether they are lives lost or just really messed up as as a result of the consequences of the decisions of those in power. I don't know how our government still functions due to all of the division and corruption within. My only conclusion is that God has not let it destroy itself and that he is giving it a chance not to become religiously fanatical or cult-ish, but rather to change, even if that doesn't seem like a possibility now. It may sound insane, but that's the best I could come up with.

ethios4 wrote:I haven't had to deal with reallly shitty things like war, horrible abuse, torture, extreme poverty, starvation, not having had access to really good acid, etc...

the expressions from reading this appeared as follows:

here cometh thee media to exploit

Interesting scenario of our real condition when we let apathy rule our lives don't you think?

Just like every american tragedy I'm willing to bet George Bush had something to do with the school shooting