watch out Abes...Cakewalk Project5 new pricing = $99!

woodie · Post by **woodie** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:46 pm

forge wrote:interesting to note all the synths/sampler on the page are priced as addons seperately

Read a little further, forge....P5 comes with Dimension LE (sampler) and 2 drum instruments.

I use Live5 and own Dimension PRO. It's basically the same thing as LE, but with more content.

http://www.cakewalk.com/oem/Dimension_LE.asp

http://www.project5.com/products/project5/perform.asp

woodie · Post by **woodie** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:49 pm

3dot... wrote:I tried it when it was V1... kinda like Sonar with a twist....but the things I dislike about Sonar were there (mainly the over-cluttered workspace)....
but it's a fully blown DAW...the price is very tempting...
It used to be a live ripoff kinda... and I guess it still is...

Yeah....same here. I tried v1 back then as well and it was a neat idea, but didn't really work like that. v2 is a totally different than it's v1 brother - in fact they should have renamed it something else, but yeah...it's hard not to see it's practically the same! Isn't Cubase the original linear track-based DAW in which all other DAW's basically follow?? Great ideas can also come from someone else!

hoffman2k · Post by **hoffman2k** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:54 pm

woodie wrote:
hoffman2k wrote:you get what you pay for...
The price of Project5 was alot higher priced when it first came out - $429 MSRP

http://namm.harmony-central.com/WNAMM05 ... t5-V2.html

so come on, 2K...this it ain't like buying a piece of furniture; I think this is Cakewalk declaring war on the Abes.

Well obviously I'm biased

I'm not going to run out to get a pc to run this piece of software. And the only arguments against using it in favor of Live is to avoid a bug that Ableton no doubt is working on. Amaury's silence in that thread says it all. Plus he said more then once in that thread that the ableton team is looking into it.
Every year I start to get paranoid when the Abes are getting silent. Usually means they're about to make some noise.

I don't know why they're so silent in the bug section, but I know for a fact they're pretty anal about fixing bugs.
1 year after the initial Live 6 beta, there's still a 6.0.x beta available in the bug forum. And everyday you see some developers lurking about the place, scanning the bug posts.

Anyway, the point is, no software is perfect.
I'd rather be annoyed with the software i've invested all my time in, then to discover new annoyances in other software. Project 5 looks good on paper, but i doubt it runs flawlessly. And even if it does, it still has to beta on osx..

If it works for you, great. But i don't see it replacing Live overnight based on the pricing model.

headquest · Post by **headquest** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:06 pm

I believe that P5 is so cheap because it has been a consistent flop ever since it was first launched

Having said that, the FREE uipgrade to v2.5 includes as many improvements as most PAID FOR Live updates. There is no doubting that Cakewalk are far more generous to their customers in that respect.

With Ableton sometimes I feel that we, the users, are victims of Live's success - the cost seems to keep going up with each release, what with all the increased exposure it now has :shrug:

3dot... · Post by **3dot...** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:11 pm

....well I dunno... I'm an ableton Fanboy...I'd rather have Robert and Co. designing and conjuring the software I use over those guys any time...I find their interface annoying... but cakewalk has also been around for a while...and have produced successful commercial products...so they know their stuff...and people that use their software are very pleased with the support they get... we are the ones who are supposed to benefit from competition so yes...Let the Games Begin!!!
...indeed.

They don't have to worry about me as I'm hooked...
...but ableton could be losing potential new users...

leisuremuffin · Post by **leisuremuffin** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:19 pm

p5 = ugly live knockoff.

yeah, you can buy a replica rolex for $40 bucks if you want to.

.lm.

headquest · Post by **headquest** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:33 pm

Why would somebody buy a Rolex though? For its superior time-telling ability, or for its image only?

When it comes to *what works*, some things work better in Live, some better in P5. Overall I far prefer Live. but each to their own

sqook · Post by **sqook** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:51 pm

hoffman2k wrote:...a bug that Ableton no doubt is working on.

If I had a dollar every time I heard that, I could probably afford to buy project5 right now.

That being said, I'm also obviously not going to switch, but I do think ableton needs to reconsider their pricing situation. Unfortunately, I don't think that the announcement of project5 will be that wake-up call, simply because it can't provide the same capabilities that Live can. It could probably take a bit of marketshare away from the ever-dwindling cubase userbase, as well as a few of the other big-player sequencers in the windows world, but it's definitely not about to fill Live's shoes.

There was another big, flamey thread here awhile back about this where someone suggested that sampler and operator should have been included with Live6 instead of extra upgrades. The more I thought about this statement, the more I started to come around to this opinion myself.

Live is a great piece of software, but you have to remember that it does basically nothing out of the box as far as actually generating sound goes (aside from sound content provided in the tutorials). Live's throwing the party, but you have to bring your own samples, your own instruments, etc. The exception to this is if you want to buy the EIC/operator/sampler upgrades, which basically means spending as much money as you would for something like Logic Pro, but getting a fraction of the instruments, sound content, and tools. I'm not suggesting that Live should be an all-in-one platform, as people are going to be using plenty of 3rd-party plugins and sound content anyways, but again, it's the investment vs. return ratio here.

That being said, I don't think that the Abes should lower their prices. Instead, they should be packing in more tools to make it a more appealing investment.

hoffman2k · Post by **hoffman2k** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:00 pm

sqook wrote:
hoffman2k wrote:...a bug that Ableton no doubt is working on.
If I had a dollar every time I heard that, I could probably afford to buy project5 right now.

That being said, I'm also obviously not going to switch, but I do think ableton needs to reconsider their pricing situation. Unfortunately, I don't think that the announcement of project5 will be that wake-up call, simply because it can't provide the same capabilities that Live can. It could probably take a bit of marketshare away from the ever-dwindling cubase userbase, as well as a few of the other big-player sequencers in the windows world, but it's definitely not about to fill Live's shoes.

There was another big, flamey thread here awhile back about this where someone suggested that sampler and operator should have been included with Live6 instead of extra upgrades. The more I thought about this statement, the more I started to come around to this opinion myself.

Live is a great piece of software, but you have to remember that it does basically nothing out of the box as far as actually generating sound goes (aside from sound content provided in the tutorials). Live's throwing the party, but you have to bring your own samples, your own instruments, etc. The exception to this is if you want to buy the EIC/operator/sampler upgrades, which basically means spending as much money as you would for something like Logic Pro, but getting a fraction of the instruments, sound content, and tools. I'm not suggesting that Live should be an all-in-one platform, as people are going to be using plenty of 3rd-party plugins and sound content anyways, but again, it's the investment vs. return ratio here.

That being said, I don't think that the Abes should lower their prices. Instead, they should be packing in more tools to make it a more appealing investment.

Time still has to tell if you'll ever have to pay for operator 5 and Sampler 3 in Live 9.1...
Usually the upgrade cost of a plugin is similar to the upgrade cost of Live. So in theory you get 3 upgrades for the price of one.
Not be confused with updates... Sampler still needs some work in the importing department.

woodie · Post by **woodie** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:53 pm

hoffman2k wrote:
woodie wrote:
hoffman2k wrote:you get what you pay for...
The price of Project5 was alot higher priced when it first came out - $429 MSRP

http://namm.harmony-central.com/WNAMM05 ... t5-V2.html

so come on, 2K...this it ain't like buying a piece of furniture; I think this is Cakewalk declaring war on the Abes.
Well obviously I'm biased
I'm not going to run out to get a pc to run this piece of software. And the only arguments against using it in favor of Live is to avoid a bug that Ableton no doubt is working on. Amaury's silence in that thread says it all. Plus he said more then once in that thread that the ableton team is looking into it.

Every year I start to get paranoid when the Abes are getting silent. Usually means they're about to make some noise.

I don't know why they're so silent in the bug section, but I know for a fact they're pretty anal about fixing bugs.
1 year after the initial Live 6 beta, there's still a 6.0.x beta available in the bug forum. And everyday you see some developers lurking about the place, scanning the bug posts.

Anyway, the point is, no software is perfect.
I'd rather be annoyed with the software i've invested all my time in, then to discover new annoyances in other software. Project 5 looks good on paper, but i doubt it runs flawlessly. And even if it does, it still has to beta on osx..

If it works for you, great. But i don't see it replacing Live overnight based on the pricing model.

hehe....well I'm not going to run out and buy a Mac to run whatever software either, so I'm with you on that one!

TBH - I'm not clued in on "the bug"...which I guess has to do with MIDI Timings as "iain_morland" at KVR mentioned, which BTW - he's now claiming Ableton just lost him as a customer, so the major LIVE 6 bug must be pretty bad.

Does Live 5.22 suffer the same problem? I haven't noticed any MIDI problems myself.

I agree though...if you've invested so much time (and money) in a product like LIVE (and you honestly like it)....why go elsewhere? I love LIVE and the interface is what sold me when it finally clicked with me - as after a number of years of being uninspired (Roland VS-1680 didn't do anything for me) - Live 5 made me become inspired again to write music like I used to back in the college days with my trusty Yamaha 4-track cassette recorder.

I've learned something here with the Abes, though, having gone thru so many Live 5 updates and looks to be the same with Live 6 - I'll PROBABLY buy Live6 at the tail end of the cycle once they've knocked all/most? of the bugs out. I'm not in dire need of those paid updated features and Live 5.22 is just fine for me....although yes, I wish it had this and that, but you can't have everything and Live 6 doesn't really have the "this and that" features to convince me to upgrade. Anyway....I like Cakewalk as a company, but I agree that P5 needs more fine-tuning on the interface, so Live wins there + it's also on Mac, BUT! it's the PRICE now that it's going to "rock the jukebox" at least for PC users.

I thought that this was clever comment by "Dewaine" in that KVR thread:

Dewaine wrote:A better question would be what functionaliy does Live have over P5 that makes it nearly $500 more.

woodie · Post by **woodie** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:26 pm

headquest wrote:I believe that P5 is so cheap because it has been a consistent flop ever since it was first launched

Having said that, the FREE uipgrade to v2.5 includes as many improvements as most PAID FOR Live updates. There is no doubting that Cakewalk are far more generous to their customers in that respect.

With Ableton sometimes I feel that we, the users, are victims of Live's success - the cost seems to keep going up with each release, what with all the increased exposure it now has :shrug:

headquest - yep, P5v2 was surely a re-write of the unsuccessful P5v1...so it's been a roller coaster ride for P5 users for sure, but the Cake Crew finally pulled thru with the long overdue v2.5 update a couple of months ago which the users got for FREE and with a number of features that really enhanced the original v2 to be a much more capable host than what it was; here's a breakdown of the NEW features in that free v2.5 update, which I think are definitely worthy as a paid update:

www.project5.com wrote: * Multiple Audio Input/Output Support (NEW)
* Support for 3rd Party Audio Editors (NEW)
* Integrated MIDI Out (NEW)
* Input Quantize (NEW)
* Integrated VST support (NEW)
* Dimension Pro LE (with REX, WAV, and SFZ support) (NEW)
* Active Controller Technology™ (NEW)
* Control surface support (NEW)
* Independent Vertical Track Sizing (NEW)
* Integrated Automation Display (NEW)
* Pre and Post Aux Sends (NEW)
* Unlimited Aux busses (NEW)
* Dynamic Master Buses (NEW)
* Busable Metronome (NEW)
* Assignable Master Volume Control (NEW)
* MIDI Export (NEW)
* Track-at-once CD burning (NEW)
* Cakewalk Publisher (NEW)

Having said that....this is what is impressing me lately about Cakewalk. They realized they hadn't been staying on top of P5 like they should (see forum for that), but looks like they re-grouped and are back at it - maybe bringing on Rene (Z3Ta/Dimension Pro/Rapture) had something to do with the latest motivation...who knows.

I like the fact that the Cake Staff are pretty active in their own Forums and with the weekly emails I get from them (and I'm only a DPro owner!) - something has changed internally for the better as they are much more in-tune with customer feedback and getting after selling their products (they are a profit oriented business after all!).

Over the weekend we got our first Cakewalk Survey which asked a bunch of questions which I duly filled out, so they ARE making a serious effort to regain back the customer confidence that they may have lost, so....as a businessman myself - I have to give it to them.

Personally...I'm starting to lose some faith in the Abes as...as you said it HeadQuest - it's like the Abes have you "in the bag" and end up taking advantage of you which I just find arrogant - and I don't like arrogant people nor do I like to feel like I'm being taken advantage of, so.....I'm definitely interested in seeing where all this is going to go and at least for me.....because this is a hobby - I have my own set of rules of what I want in a product/company that I'm going to end up supporting.

Nevertheless....I'm happy with Live 5.22 as it does pretty much what I need it to do......and there's really no reason to jump ship yet.

popslut · Post by **popslut** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:30 pm

The price has crashed because nobody is buying it.

Nobody is buying it because it's shit.

Sales Dude McBoob · Post by **Sales Dude McBoob** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:37 pm

Bring back $299!

Free Sampler + Operator for all!

Also rent out a stadium in Berlin, throw a big party for all Live serial # owners, provide a huge feast with roasted meats and fancy minty soups, and free Brau. There will be a big stage, and we will all get to play a set!

woodie · Post by **woodie** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:50 pm

popslut wrote:The price has crashed because nobody is buying it.

Nobody is buying it because it's shit.

of course...how could I have overlooked that!? Thanks for your words of wisdom.

Sales Dude McBoob wrote:Bring back $299!

Free Sampler + Operator for all!

Also rent out a stadium in Berlin, throw a big party for all Live serial # owners, provide a huge feast with roasted meats and fancy minty soups, and free Brau. There will be a big stage, and we will all get to play a set!

now you're talkin'!

popslut · Post by **popslut** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 4:14 pm

woodie wrote:
popslut wrote:The price has crashed because nobody is buying it.

Nobody is buying it because it's shit.
of course...how could I have overlooked that!? Thanks for your words of wisdom.

It's a golden rule of marketing that when your product is selling well you always slash the price of it by 60%.

Everyone knows that.

Obviously, if you have a better explanation.