Linux?

Tommy Genes · Post by **Tommy Genes** » Sun Mar 02, 2003 2:15 am

My interest in having Live ported to Linux because Linux is open source would, at most, be secondary.

What I would really want is a version of Live that could be run from a Linux-style (or old MS DOS, for that matter) command prompt. GUI OSes, like Windows and OS X, have to do a lot of other non-application related stuff in the background, no matter how much you optimize them.

Especially as my laptop gets older, I'd love to have the option to turn it into into a dedicated Live machine, one that goes straight to Live when I power-up, and one that I know is devoting all of its hardware resources to running only Live (and maybe Plogue Bidule.)

Stanton made this decision for Final Scratch (which some else had mentioned earlier.) They realized that the current crop of hardware (or at least that which was current at the time of FS release) could not run with any sort of "professional" reliability if Windows or Mac OS were involved.

That is what I would like to see for Live, be it on Linux, DOS, BeOS, BSD, or whatever.

-- T. G. --

Alex Reynolds · Post by **Alex Reynolds** » Sun Mar 02, 2003 7:34 am

The issues were more low-level hardware access and free software development tools that made Linux a preferred OS choice for Final Scratch.

Both Windows 2000/XP and Mac OS X have a hardware abstraction model that keeps access to the kernel tucked away from the developer. This slows down access to hardware devices.

Add to that with Windows you have to spend quite a bit of money on development tools, and Linux becomes an attractive choice.

-Alex

raapie · Post by **raapie** » Sun Mar 02, 2003 9:04 pm

if Live can be ported to Linux: fantastic! See the Agnula project... might be the best thing ever for software-music tool.

al3x · Post by **al3x** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 3:23 am

Having spent about the last six years using Linux for everything from audio to serving to programming before switching in the last few months to Mac OS X, I would be horrified to see Ableton wasting their time (and their customer's time!) trying to develop for Linux. Yeah, that's right, I've used Linux more than most of y'all and I'd choke on my headphones before I'd advocate porting a major software package to it. People don't really get it: Linux is NOT a desktop/multimedia/office/usable platform. That stuff has been tacked on as an afterthought. Some of it works well, some of it doesn't, and none of it is consistent from either the developer or user's perspective.

When you say "Linux," what do you really mean? Do mean Red Hat? SuSE? What kernel? What GCC version? On what processor? With what graphics toolkit? Adhering to what standards: LSB? United Linux?

Trying to make a program run on both Windows and Mac OS is a challenge enough, and Ableton does a damn fine job. And you can debate all day about what's more "buggy," but Linux is still a support nightmare. Don't get me wrong, it and the *BSDs will always be the best server platforms out there, and great for students and anyone who wants to learn a lot about computers and networks on the cheap. But it's not ready for pro audio, it's not ready for the desktop, and it probably never will be. And that's all I'm gonna say. I can respect people's frustration with the Windows/Mac duopoly, but you have to spend years in the Linux world before you understand that it's not that greener on the other side of the fence.

EZO · Post by **EZO** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 4:35 am

Anonymous wrote:Hey guys! LIVE runs on MacOS X. What's your ploblem?
MacOS X is like Linux only better.

From what I neard, not very well.....

jago25_98 · Post by **jago25_98** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 5:24 pm

I'm another user who would like an alternative to the current O/S support.

If you're playing in front of 4000 people do you really want or need a full O/S? Do you really want to be using something as complicated as WinXP or OSX?

Until then I will keep rebooting into my partition that only has Ableton installed and a cut down version of XP.

The Benjamin · Post by **The Benjamin** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 5:57 pm

I'm replying particularly to Al3x.

I don't have nearly your experience with Linux. I've played with it quite a bit, but for all my day-to-day tasks I use OS X and WinXP (yes, I use both). From what I can tell, your assessment that it would be premature for Ableton to port to Linux is accurate.

In another thread on this forum, there was some discussion about how half-assed the support for audio on OS X and Windows really is. At this point in the evolution of computer music, it's at least fairly clear that more and more work will be done "inside the box." Yet getting applications to interoperate is at least a hassle, sometimes a nightmare, sometimes impossible. I mean, at this point, should Rewire really be necessary? Shouldn't the ability to route audio and midi from one application to another be built in?

My point is, we're at the whim of Microsoft and Apple and the features they deem to give us. Clever application developers can give us some pretty nice work-arounds, but it sure would be nice to see more OS-level audio support. And it looks to me that real innovation in the realm of audio support just isn't a priority.

There are at least two Linux distros (Agnula and Planet CCRMA) trying to do serious multimedia work on the Linux platform. As with everything in the Linux world, improvements come from the hard work of volunteers making decisions about the future of the platform and then (hopefully) actually following through on them.

So my dream is that at some point the open source world could bring about the innovation that Apple and Microsoft aren't. And I'd say if that's your dream too, it's probably time for you to start volunteering some time to an open source audio project. And maybe some day it will make actual sense for Ableton to port Live.

After this post, I'll need to put my money where my mouth is and volunteer for a Linux audio project myself. Looks like I just found my New Year's resolution.

henry ford · Post by **henry ford** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 9:55 pm

davemanning wrote: I guess I'm not sure what the benefit of running a closed source application on an open source OS vs. a closed source OS.

you must be some kind of idiot.

the stability of the OS is the benefit.

sqook · Post by **sqook** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 10:43 pm

henry ford wrote:
davemanning wrote: I guess I'm not sure what the benefit of running a closed source application on an open source OS vs. a closed source OS.
you must be some kind of idiot.

the stability of the OS is the benefit.

You ever run solaris before? It's by far one of the most stable OS's on the market, and it's closed source (well, it was OSS for a brief period of time, but I believe it's closed source again). The majority of Mac OSX is closed source; Darwin (the kernel) is pretty much the only part of it that's open. You're making a HUGE blanket statement just based on the fact that Windows is unstable and linux isn't.

And FWIW, I have run linux for many years, just like al3x. He took the words right out of my mouth... linux is great for some things, but multimedia isn't one of them. I think a perfect example of this is final scratch, which was developed under linux (by a pair of MIT grads, if I recall correctly...) and later ported to windows and mac os. A friend of mine still has a copy of FS for linux from many years ago. However, you'll note that stanton discontinued the linux line and preferred to focus on windows and mac, primarily due to support issues.

If you don't believe me, check out this online petition with a grand total of 122 linux users begging stanton to resume linux support for FS. The bottom line is, why should a company dump a ton of time, money, and resources in supporting another operating system with a limited market base and hardware support? It just doesn't make economic sense.

henry ford · Post by **henry ford** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 11:38 pm

i imagine that peoples main gripe with it might be the initial installation , and partitioning of theyre drive , basically initial setup stuff. ill be surprised if people were annoyed with it after it was up and running.

anyways , it wasnt my intent to make a statement - i was only helping the pedant understand what the implied benefit would be of running live on linux.

as for stanton making the choice to focus on windows mac and not linux , id hazard a bet is based on nothing more than economics - and i think we can all agree that economics does not equal quality

henry ford · Post by **henry ford** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 11:53 pm

well , after reading that petition it seems obvious to me that the problems are with the coding of the software , not linux. those people are upset for many reasons , but its misleading to suggest its because the linux version requires more support. the truth is the software is coded poorly on all the OS's and the hardware has faulty chips. now stanton and NI are charging people for support , and only supporting windows and mac peoples. This is by no means a linux issue. just the linux people are getting the worst deal , sure. but if you cant code a piece of software or provide decent hardware its not going to work right on the best os in the whole wide universe , at any time in any galaxy.

for anyone who hasnt checked out the link:

We the owners of Stantons FinalScratch powered by Traktor DJ software technology From Native Instruments
Would like both companies (Stanton and Native Instruments) to continue support
for their Linux and MAC and New WINDOWS XP versions at no additional cost to us.
More for the Linux version because both companies have decided to stop all support
for Linux version.

also , i find this interesting - as i'm having these exact feelings about ableton live 5 , having bought it since release and having not been able to use it as advertised - and its now almost 2006:

We have not been given what the product "Final Scratch" and its designers both Stanton and Native Instruments
have promised both on the side of the package box as well as on their websites.

and again , another interesting point i find relevant to ableton live 5 (and perhaps any audio interface using firewire , or perhaps as some believe bearing the maudio brand [abletons promotional partner in europe]:

We feel that they have not properly tested this program and equipment before releasing
it to the public. And now we have been BETA TESTING their product,finding numerous and countless glitches in both
software and hardware.

anyways , nice link...but it in no way bolsters your point

eyeknow · Post by **eyeknow** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 1:20 am

I'd like to get into linux, but ANOTHER thing to get used to..............

henry ford · Post by **henry ford** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 3:51 am

anyways , in light of the final scratch analogy - it just goes to show you that a poorly coded , ill prepared programme wont work on a horse like linux just because linux is all things great.

so as for wishing live5 onto the linux platform...well , let them get live5 working right first. and then feel free to dream

you cant get blood out of a stone , if you will.

Emissary · Post by **Emissary** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 3:33 pm

a linux version would be ace, maybe they could hire a small band of geeks to port it over to linux for a pitance just for the chance to work with them? like a competition or something,

Moody · Post by **Moody** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 4:07 pm

I would totaly support a Linux version but it would have to be completely integrated. I would not want to have to install Linux myself or dick with configuring it. Something similar to the way VMware created their ESX server. I just want to power on my laptop, have the Live GUI and go about making a bunch of racket.

The obvious problem is driver support for the sound cards and other hardware. If you have tried installing Linux on a laptop before then you will understand the headache involved with this.

Linux?

yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ahem