music theory boffins - chord progressions and right chords

[sweetjesus]

4.33 and aisling, is there a site or something with more explanations of where you got this from:

MAJOR SCALE
I = major
ii = minor
iii = minor
IV = major
V = major
vi = minor
vii = diminished

You build chords on a scale like this.

You take your scale, for simplicity lets say C major.

C D E F G A B

You pick a step of the scale to start on.

C D E F G A B
^

Then you stack intervals of a third (either major or minor third) from the scale to create the chord. Minor thirds are three semi-tones and major thirds are four semi-tones. For your usual 7 note scales like major, minor, melodic minor, that means you just take every other note from the scale. So for example the tonic chord in Cmajor is like this.

Code: Select all

C   D   E   F   G   A   B
^        ^        ^
  maj3    min3

(by maj3 and min3 I mean intervals of a major third and minor third)

C E G is a C major triad of course. So then look at say the chord starting on the sixth step of the scale.

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C   D   E   F   G   A   B   C   D   E   F   G   A   B
                        ^        ^       ^
                           min3   maj3

A C E is A minor.

If you do this for each step of the scale you'll find you end up with that pattern, Major, minor, minor, Major, Major, minor, diminished.

You can make seventh chords in the same way, just stack another third on the end.

perfect thanks!

musictheory.net is good, but its reliance on the visual aspect of sheet music doesnt do a good job of teaching the science behind it to a noob like me.

this makes sense however, and i get how a chord will stay within the scale yet have the ability to be major or minor independent of the song key itself.

i started to apply some of all this knowledge to music and so far the outcome has been sounding more like some weird prog rock dance hybrid as if digweed and dreamtheater decided to work together... not quite what i was after.

[Tone Deft]

4.33 and aisling, is there a site or something with more explanations of where you got this from:

MAJOR SCALE
I = major
ii = minor
iii = minor
IV = major
V = major
vi = minor
vii = diminished

seems like you've had good info so far.

find a table of how to spell 3 note chords (then do 4 note and if you want get get freaky look into 5, 6, 7... note chords)
http://www.neutron2k.co.uk/pages/resour ... llings.asp

I learned this stuff by doing lots of pencil and paper exercices. finding the chords for a given scale is called 'scale harmonization', I'll harmoize the C major scale.

C major scale
C D E F G A B (all whole notes which makes the C major scale a popular example, it's the only scale without # or flats.) in the major scale there a whole step (2 notes) between all the notes except the 3 to 4 and 7 to 1 which are just 1 note apart.

So, we're making 3 note chords, each time you start on a different note, adding every other note:

C E G - C major chord
D F A - D minor chord
E G B - E minor chord
F A C - F major chord
G B D - G major chord
A C E - A minor chord
B D F - A diminished chord (rarely used chord really)

for 4 note chords you get

C E G B - C major7 chord
D F A C - D minor7 chord
E G B D - E minor7 chord
F A C E - F major 7 chord
G B D F - G dominant7 chord
A C E - A minor7 chord
B D F - A dimb7 (something like that, I always screw that one up and can't look it up right now)


my advice to you would be to learn how to write out the major scales in all the keys
http://esvc001419.wic024u.server-web.co ... scamaj.htm
has them laid out in a poor manner

then use that chord spelling page to identify chords. for months I'd write them out and now I know more than I can play. it's not all that hard there's just some new ideas to be familiar with.

try this
starting on the C note, play a chord with every other white key
then move each note up one note
do that 4 times then back down
now you're playing 'Boy's don't cry' by the cure
C Dm Em F <-- play kinda slow
F Em Dm C <-- play faster

if you put a midi pitch plug in and bump it up by 1 you can play the same song in C# instead of C, bump it up two you can play it in D etc...

[Tone Deft]

found some notes

chord spellings. I have this laid out with major on the right side of a table, minor on the left, copying them here the table is interleaved major minor major minor (major means it has a '3' in it, minor is 'b3')

Major 1 3 5
minor 1 b3 5
5 1 5
m6 1 b3 5 6
6 1 3 5 6
m7 1 b3 5 b7
7 (dom) 1 3 5 b7
m add9 1 b3 5 9
add9 1 3 5 9
m6 add9 1 b3 5 6 9
6add9 1 3 5 6 9
m9 1 b3 5 b7 9
9 (dom) 1 3 5 b7 9
m11 1 b3 5 b7 9 11
11 (dom) 1 3 5 b7 9 11
m13 1 b3 5 b7 9 13
13 (dom) 1 3 5 b7 9 13
mM7 1 b3 5 7
M7 1 3 5 7
M9 1 3 5 7 9
sus2 1 2 5
+(aug) 1 3 #5
sus4 1 4 5
+7 1 3 #5 b7
sus2sus4 1 2 4 5
7sus4 (dom) 1 4 5 b7
o (dim) 1 b3 b5
o7 (dim7) 1 b3 b5 bb7


and I wrote out some harmonized scales

Harmonic minor 1,2,b3,4,5,b6,7
3 note chords Im IIo bIII+ IVm V bVI VIIo
4 note chords IMm7 IIm7b5 bIIIM7+ IVm7 V7 bVIM7 VIIo

Natural minor 1,2,b3,4,5,b6,b7
3 note chords Im IIo bIII IVm Vm bVI bVII
4 note chords IMm7 IIm7b5 bIIIM7 IVm7 Vm7 bVIM7 bVII7

Melodic minor 1,2,b3,4,5,6,7
3 note chords Im IIm bIII+ IV V VIo VIIo
4 note chords Im7 IIm7 bIIIM7+ IV7 V7 VIm7b5 VIIm7b5

+ means augmented
o means diminished


hth it's not as hard as it may seem.

[sweetjesus]

wow everyone seems to know a lot more about the theory stuff than i thought.

this is getting through so i appreciate everyones input.

[Tone Deft]

hopefully someone's mentioned 'use your ears.' I don't know a ton of theory, but I know more than I can fully use. it's like when I get stuck or don't know where to start fitting in on a jam I start to look at this stuff, try something out and use my ears.

really, paper and pencil is how I learned all this. for years I'd haunt guitar forums asking questions, trying stuff out, years later it sunk in. when you get a chance challenge yourself to write out the major scales. then write out the 3 note chords for those scales, they will ALWAYS follow the same pattern, but there's nothing like writing them out.



back to the craps table, I'm in Reno this weeend.

[Lazos]

hopefully someone's mentioned 'use your ears.'

+1. I remember my first year music theory prof asking me if I really wanted to use that minor v chord in my progression in a major key. I was unsure, but later learned that I really had to trust my ears more. It also keeps the music fresher if you are not concerned with being a slave to "functional harmony."

[aisling]

i started to apply some of all this knowledge to music and so far the outcome has been sounding more like some weird prog rock dance hybrid as if digweed and dreamtheater decided to work together... not quite what i was after.

nice one, quite funny. Yeah, careful about proging.

[sweetjesus]

just found this vid which is amazing:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gs2Yb3whXDA

[Isaac Yacockov]

thanks for all the informative info. I learned a lot and think it will make my tarnce music much better now.

[sweetjesus]

okay

i figured all that out now and can happily make a chord progression of my choosing that is proper for the scale im working on.

now if i want to modulate between different chord progressions or different keys, how do i go about going from say a I - V - IV chord progression in Gmajor to I - vi - IV - V one in C major?

[sweetjesus]

got this on modulation between keys:

Modulating with the Dominant Chord. You can always modulate to a new key simply by introducing the dominant chord (V chord) of the new key and then the I chord of the new key. For example, if you are modulating to the key of G, you would sound a D chord and then a G chord. To make the modulation more convincing, you can use a dominant-seventh chord (V7) instead of just a dominant triad. In other words, you would sound a D7 chord. You might also use various alterations of the dominant chord (to be discussed in a future lesson.)

Does that mean I end up with a limited range of keys and stuff I can shift to from a current key?

[sweetjesus]

for others tryin to understand what this whole thread was about :

[Angstrom]

question #1
as far as I know those two will go together quite well anyway - as the keys are pretty similar. It would really depend on the arrangement and the chord voicings whether the change alerts itself to the listener. In this case the transition resolves ok. Unless I am mistaken

depending on the situation or the song sometimes it is necessary to really advertise the change in key away from the mode.

question#2
there are no real limits what you change to - the limit is self-imposed by how tricky you can or can't be in changing to different keys without making the listener throw up! I normally go for whatever is appropriate for the song.

wikipedia has a reasonable round up of the methods of modulation which can be employed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modulation_(music)


oh, here's a book chapter - some people have expressed dislike of this book, personally I found it quite useful. I didn't go to any music school though - so I'm not the best judge.

http://www.howmusicreallyworks.com/Page ... ter_6.html

[longjohns]

it already sounds fine going from the FM7 to CM7

I think you just found out that if you want something to stick in between , G7 is the most obvious choice

to trick that out a little bit more, you can skip the FM7 entirely and make it a real ii-V-I by going GM7 - D7 - Dmi7 - G7 - CM7

or even fancier - do a minor ii-V instead, even though you're going Major

GM7 - D7 - Dmi7b5 - Galt - CM7

where the alt chord can have really any combination of flat or sharp 5th or 9th

could also throw a B dim in there before the C

[longjohns]

oops jinx