Operator + Analog vs. Reason synths?

v00d00ppl · Post by **v00d00ppl** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:32 am

thracks wrote:I have opted out of upgrading to the Suite. It's a good deal, but I have way too many soft synths, including Reason 4 to justify the upgrade. I'll just be getting the $119 upgrade.

i am in the same predicament. i already have reason 4 plus i have ableton's sampler and a few other synths....the main reason why i am upgrading is the improved sound engine, the better compressor, true sidechaining and the movie export. i played with all the other instruments and with all the other plugins i doubt i will really be playing with them anyways.

Synthbuilder · Post by **Synthbuilder** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:39 am

I wasn't that impressed by either Operator or Analog. In fact, although I liked the sound of Analog's oscillators, the filter was horrible to my ears. I prefer the filter in Sampler.

I do use Reason occasionally, but mostly for the NN-Xt and odd Sub patch. Thor is fine and I can see myself using it in future - but it too doesn't do exactly what I had hoped.

Automation is much better using Live's own instruments. And for the most part, VSTi automation will be easier than controlling Reason synths via CCs in midiclips. Its a great shame that the 'external instrument' plug in did not give us CC automation capability from the arrange window.

My own preferences, and this is coming from someone with a great respect for Reason, is to use some choice VSTi. I use, but you will be different, ASynth [free], Synth1 [donation], Vaz Modular, Pro-53, Imposcar and Sampler.

Also, note that Live doesn't know when rewire busses have any audio on them, so any sends active on that track will be being processed by any effects in the send channels. This does cause a CPU drain. I have sets showing 40% CPU even when they are doing nothing. The work around is automating the Reason audio tracks so that when there is no Reason output, you mute the Live track. Or you don't use sends on rewire busses. This doesn't happen with VSTi devices.

headquest · Post by **headquest** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:47 pm

I think that a better workaround might simply to be to freeze the Rewire track, which is now possible thanks to the External Instrument device. Then the Send/Return situation works better as expected.

I agree entirely that it would be really good if the External Instrument device would give us CC automation capability from the arrange window.

Synthbuilder · Post by **Synthbuilder** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:55 pm

headquest wrote:I think that a better workaround might simply to be to freeze the Rewire track, which is now possible thanks to the External Instrument device. Then the Send/Return situation works better as expected.

Yes, this is a good idea. But for me this doesn't work so well while I am composing in the arrange window. My tracks are generally pretty long, over 15 minutes. Now, because Live does not know when audio is present on the buss it has to render/freeze the track for the whole song length. This can take some time even if you have only a couple of seconds of Thor near the end of the track.

OK, its not like waiting for paint to dry, but in my case its easier just to throw some automation on the track.

headquest · Post by **headquest** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:33 pm

Okay, I see your point. It's a great thing with Live that there is the flexibility to try these different approaches at least

As a matter of interest, using your (extreem, no doubt) example, I would have thought that if you split and remove the silent/empty sections of the track and just leave the short clip(s) where THOR was being used... wouldn't it freeze quicker than if you leave the full track there?

By the way, are any of your tracks posted anywhere - I'd be interested to hear what you are coming up with!

Synthbuilder · Post by **Synthbuilder** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:49 pm

headquest wrote:I would have thought that if you split and remove the silent/empty sections of the track and just leave the short clip(s) where THOR was being used... wouldn't it freeze quicker than if you leave the full track there?

That's the thing. It doesn't matter how long the clip is, Live has to render the whole track up to the last clip on that track to find out where the audio is. So a second long clip near the end of a three minute track would take Live the same length of time as a three minute clip.

However, if you take your clip and put in near the front of the song and don't have anything after it, it'll freeze really quickly. Then you can move it to where you want it.

headquest wrote: By the way, are any of your tracks posted anywhere - I'd be interested to hear what you are coming up with!

Go to http://www.oakleysound.com/music.htm for links and samples of my music. On that page there should be a link to the Download.com page with one of my Reason tracks. Actually, I think you may have heard that one when I put it on KVR some time ago.

headquest · Post by **headquest** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:52 pm

Synthbuilder wrote: That's the thing. It doesn't matter how long the clip is, Live has to render the whole track up to the last clip on that track to find out where the audio is. So a second long clip near the end of a three minute track would take Live the same length of time as a three minute clip.

Hmmm...

However, if you take your clip and put in near the front of the song and don't have anything after it, it'll freeze really quickly. Then you can move it to where you want it.

Good workaround

Go to http://www.oakleysound.com/music.htm for links and samples of my music. On that page there should be a link to the Download.com page with one of my Reason tracks. Actually, I think you may have heard that one when I put it on KVR some time ago.

Heading there now

Yeah, I remember hearing some good stuff from you before... not a 15 minute epic though

I like to hear how people extend ideas over a longer timeframe

synnack · Post by **synnack** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:18 pm

I agree with most people and concluded that I would not use Operator/Analog nearly as much as I do my 3rd party VSTi's.

But there is another thing to consider that still makes me want to buy them.

If you trade Ableton tracks back and forth with soemone else, or multiple computers of your own, it is WAY easier to just "collect and save" using native Ableton instruments and just open it on the other computer than deal with requiring multiple people to own the same 3rd party vsti's and expect the presents to transfer over correctly.

For that reason alone I might force myself to use Operator/Analog only.

Naive Teen Idol · Post by **Naive Teen Idol** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:36 pm

I used Reason 2.5 and Live 3 on my old G4 -- the pair worked as smooth as silk and the workflow was perfect. I now have an Intel MacBook, Live 6, and Reaktor and wonder where it all went wrong.

Now I'm struggling to figure out my next move and am trying to decide between Reason 4, Ableton Suite and Kontakt 3.

Here's what I want to know:

Am I the only one here who admires Live's instrument interfaces (Analog/etc., but particularly Racks) more from an aesthetic standpoint than a creative one? It's almost embarrassing to admit, but Reason's colorful GUI and virtual racks just seem much more conducive to composition and tweaking than Ableton's knobs. While it's a super-tidy package, I constantly am finding when I open third-party preset racks within Live that I have virtually no idea how anything is mapped and end up unfolding the rack a hundred times trying to get to the one parameter I'm looking for.

Am I alone in finding this frustrating?

polyslax · Post by **polyslax** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:04 pm

Naive Teen Idol wrote:I constantly am finding when I open third-party preset racks within Live that I have virtually no idea how anything is mapped and end up unfolding the rack a hundred times trying to get to the one parameter I'm looking for.

Am I alone in finding this frustrating?

Nope. Similar thoughts were recently voiced by a few of us in another thread. To reiterate my own thoughts... I live Live's aesthetic for simple interfaces and the general operation of the program's interface. I find it falls down when dealing with complex interfaces. Visual cues are absent... elements are tiny and non-descript. I suggested perhaps a break-away window for the instrument lane to at least gain some size and avoid excessive scrolling and folding/unfolding. It's a delicate balance, to be sure, and I personally don't really want to see anything emulating real hardware... just more space/size and perhaps better use of colour and UI widgets. YMMV.

Naive Teen Idol · Post by **Naive Teen Idol** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:11 pm

Similar thoughts were recently voiced by a few of us in another thread.

I'd love to see that thread.

It's something that's slowly dawned on me these last few months. Nothing annoys me more than the "Wahhh, I can't make music with only $15K worth of computer gear" argument, but in this case, as much as I love Live for a lot of things, I feel as if it's not an accident that I'm having trouble finding sounds I like and can modify to my specs.

And yeah, hardware emulators are really a personal taste -- I think it really depends on the instrument it's emulating. But come on, anything is more suggestive than six knobs with names and numbers.

polyslax · Post by **polyslax** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:26 pm

Naive Teen Idol wrote:
Similar thoughts were recently voiced by a few of us in another thread.
I'd love to see that thread.

It's not necessarily the focus of the thread, but you'll see the issue surface in a few posts:

http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=77955

Naive Teen Idol · Post by **Naive Teen Idol** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:48 pm

Thanks, felt strongly enough about this to post a new topic about it here:
http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=79395

59min · Post by **59min** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:56 pm

Hi, I understand you. Ableton Live is great but the GUI is to "flat". Evrything has "equal" 2D look, its confusing for me eyes (or brain). Thats why I always find meself infront of Reason 4, I find every parameter so much quicker cause of the 3D "hardware" GUI. Live is ok but Reason is so much better for me, maybe Im old and me eyes are tired......

Naive Teen Idol wrote:I used Reason 2.5 and Live 3 on my old G4 -- the pair worked as smooth as silk and the workflow was perfect. I now have an Intel MacBook, Live 6, and Reaktor and wonder where it all went wrong.

Now I'm struggling to figure out my next move and am trying to decide between Reason 4, Ableton Suite and Kontakt 3.

Here's what I want to know:

Am I the only one here who admires Live's instrument interfaces (Analog/etc., but particularly Racks) more from an aesthetic standpoint than a creative one? It's almost embarrassing to admit, but Reason's colorful GUI and virtual racks just seem much more conducive to composition and tweaking than Ableton's knobs. While it's a super-tidy package, I constantly am finding when I open third-party preset racks within Live that I have virtually no idea how anything is mapped and end up unfolding the rack a hundred times trying to get to the one parameter I'm looking for.

Am I alone in finding this frustrating?

Naive Teen Idol · Post by **Naive Teen Idol** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:54 pm

It's a really good point, thanks -- I'm trying to decide between Reason 4 and Kontakt 3. Being as familiar as I am w/ Reason, that would seem the obvious choice -- but Kontakt 3 seems to be the superior product in general. The unknown is whether I'd connect with it as quickly as I would Reason.