(OT) American citizens, call to action re: FISA veto threat

[b0unce]

that wasn't sarcasm, that was genuine astonishment.

[smutek]

Oh, yes I know - I meant on his part.

[b0unce]

Oh, yes I know - I meant on his part.

oh, no it wasn't sarcasm unfortunately.

[chrysalis33rpm]

..."of himself and his giant telecom criminal co-conspirators..."

It's just that kind of paranoid conspiracy-theory terminology that causes me to dismiss this type of rhetoric.

Are you at all informed of the situation?

Basically the executive branch of the US gov't intercepted the communications of thousands or possibly millions of US citizens without a warrant and with no supervision after 911. This went on for several years. These actions was taken even though there is already a special secret court set up to issue warrants within a 72 hour timeframe exactly for cases like this. This court was created after the Watergate scandals, and the laws which created it are unequivocally clear - the gathering of information in this manner, without a warrant, is criminal.

These directives came from the highest executives in our gov't, and were only able to be carried out with the assistance of the telecom companies, who, it is now clear, had legal qualms about complying. Most of them did, however, choose to comply after internal deliberations.

In fact, even attorney general John Ashcroft (not exactly a left-winger) refused to sign off on the legality of this program. This lead to a dramatic hospital room showdown when the presidents agents attempted to coerce a very ill Mr. Ashcroft into signing the order. (He still refused).

So, we have another situation (see: war_in_Iraq/WMD) in which our nations executives blatantly violated the laws which they are supposed to uphold, and in this case they were aided by a series of giant companies. All parties involved were clearly aware of the illegality of their actions. I want to see those responsable nailed to the wall, as examples for those who would do it again. In particular, companies would think twice about these actions in the future if thier mistakes this time cost them millions of dollars (the only language they understand).

And yet because the word 'co-conspirators' was used, you dismiss it? Hats off to the depth of your thought process.

None of this is in factually in dispute by anyone, BTW- its been reported over and over in the New York Times and the Washington Post. The only polemic is whether it was patriotic or profoundly un-American. I think its obvious where I stand.

[hoffman2k]

Oh, yes I know - I meant on his part.

http://edition.cnn.com/CNNI/Programs/daily.show/

Although thats the trimmed down edition, it doesn't really matter.
Because we can either download the episodes, watch it on the daily show site or even tune into stations that air the show. Here in Denmark they even air the uncensored version on television I think.
The point being, you'd be amazed at how much reach a show from US basic cable has.
And don't get me started on Colbert, Maher and even the pro bush Dennis Miller.

[b0unce]

..."of himself and his giant telecom criminal co-conspirators..."

It's just that kind of paranoid conspiracy-theory terminology that causes me to dismiss this type of rhetoric.

Are you at all informed of the situation?

Ya, I mean really... in this day in age there's no excuse. There's divxs of the daily show all over the net. On cnn.com too. You need to brush up on this hambone1. You'll be needing series 1, 3 & 4. every episode. come on now, this is serious business.

[nowtime]

Thanks for the link.

[popslut]

...profoundly un-American...

Wtf does that mean?

How can it be "un-American" if it is done in America, by Americans to Americans?

[Tone Deft]

...profoundly un-American...

Wtf does that mean?

How can it be "un-American" if it is done in America, by Americans to Americans?

as he stated

...our nations executives blatantly violated the laws which they are supposed to uphold

illegal and unconstitutional.

[popslut]

...profoundly un-American...

Wtf does that mean?

How can it be "un-American" if it is done in America, by Americans to Americans?

as he stated

...our nations executives blatantly violated the laws which they are supposed to uphold

illegal and unconstitutional.

"Illegal and unconstitutional" I understand.

Wtf does "un-American" mean?

Because it kind of suggests that trampling over laws, violating the rights of individuals and riding roughshod over your constitution is somehow anathema to your national identity, when the evidence of the last 50 years suggests otherwise.

You never hear people saying "un-French" or "un-Italian" or "un-Somalian"

I just find it a curious expression and one that smacks of a kind of ugly cultural imperialism.

[smutek]

It's certainly a nationalist sentiment but I think calling it cultural imperialism is perhaps a bit off base.

I think our foreign policy for at least the last 50 years reeks of "cultural imperialism", and just plain old imperialism, but I don't agree with you in that it would apply to the term "un-american" here.

It's definition would depend on who is using it of course, my wife's redneck grand father would say it is prfoundly un-american to have a muslim friend, but he's a WWII vet, pushing 70 and isn't going to change.

In this context it means the ideas and principles the country was founded on, primarily meaning the constitution, the declaration of independence and all of the positives (as opposed to the destruction of indigenous people, slavery and all of the negatives).

But you already know that. Nationalist, exclusive, proud, Ameri-centric (sorry, I think I just made that word up) perhaps. Imperialistic, not at all.

Least not the way I see it.

[b0unce]

Least not the way I see it.

...don't ask a fish about water...

[chrysalis33rpm]

...profoundly un-American...

Wtf does that mean?

How can it be "un-American" if it is done in America, by Americans to Americans?

To put it in very simple terms for you, it is exactly like the phrase "unsportsman-like": although sportsmen cheat all the time, we still consider the ethical standard of an ideal athlete to be above cheating.

To frame it in a more complex manner, the definition of any individual identity is malleable. The American identity I define (and definitions are always largely a matter of choice) as being based on adaptability, fairness, a hard work ethic, and courage to welcome diverse ideas and cultures. I engage this definition with full knowledge of the unsavory aspects of American history.

[chrysalis33rpm]

Least not the way I see it.

...don't ask a fish about water...

If you weren't such a pinhead, you'd see that a fish could tell you quite a bit more about water than you ever would have realized.

[dodgyedgy]

You never hear people saying "un-French" or "un-Italian" or "un-Somalian"

If you lived in those countries you would

An besides the french go on marches and strikes at the drop of a hat to protect their own and their idea of how their country should be.

SO= FAIL