7.0.2: Arrow icons pointing at unintuitive directions

[Angstrom]

hmm, I see.

I'm trying to think of an app that hides and shows panels with arrows, but I can't.
Most of them use a tab or a double click on the header or some other proprietary method.

I should stop thinking about this for a bit and do some work anyway.

[Nokatus]

I'm trying to think of an app that hides and shows panels with arrows, but I can't.

As you're dealing with graphics software, too, check out Lightroom for a quick example. In Photoshop CS3, "Expand dock" / "Collapse to icons". In Opera, panels.

[Poster]

to me it's like this:

use an arrow:
follow the convention, even if it looks a bit strange at some places, at least it's consequent..

or use your own graphic language;
open/closed circle, evil/angel smiley, red/blue broccoli, yin/yang.. whatever..
as long as it's consequent, it'll make sense to a user..

[Nokatus]

use an arrow:
follow the convention, even if it looks a bit strange at some places, at least it's consequent.

Yep, I'm just trying to say, when expanding and collapsing panels in the GUI, it's a valid convention to point the arrow at the direction of the resulting new panel (and similarly, when the panel is open, pointing the same arrow at the opposite direction for "close panel").

[Poster]

use an arrow:
follow the convention, even if it looks a bit strange at some places, at least it's consequent.

Yep, I'm just trying to say, when expanding and collapsing panels in the GUI, it's a valid convention to point the arrow at the direction of the resulting new panel (and similarly, when the panel is open, pointing the same arrow at the opposite direction for "close panel").

not sure if I understand you correct,
but in idle mode, the arrow icons should never tell what happens after the click,
but should always indicate the current state..

[Nokatus]

the arrow icons should never tell what happens after the click.

Of course they should, if it's a GUI panel you're going to expand

This is very much an ongoing convention when dealing with whole panels which appear into the workspace. I know what you mean, but the thing is, you're talking about slightly different kinds of uses here.

If you haven't encountered the use of such GUI elements in other software than Live, see this Ajax framework demo in your browser:

http://extjs.com/deploy/dev/examples/la ... mplex.html

The arrows in the right, left and bottom areas of the screen are telling you that there is an element there, which will close/expand into the direction of the arrow. In this case the icon is a double arrow, but it's being used similarly with the single triangular ones (like the ones in Live), for example in Adobe Lightroom - and previously in Live as well, when showing and hiding the browser, info view or the clip/midi/chain view.

When ever there are expanding areas inside a GUI, opening in different directions like this, I feel this is the intuitive way to go with the arrows.

[Poster]

the arrow icons should never tell what happens after the click.

Of course they should, if it's a GUI panel you're going to expand

either you didn't undestand what I mean or you think different..

take the tree example..

[>] says: current state is folded..

[V] says: current state is unfolded..


what you're saying is this:

[>] current state is unfolded, but when you click me, the state will change to folded because that's what the icon says..

[V] current state is folded, but when you click me, the state will change to unfolded because that's what the icon says..



i.m.o. that is reversed thinking when it comes to these arrow buttons..

you're saying that the icon should tell you what will happen in the future; thus you'll have to think backward to know what the current state is..

I say it should tell you what the current state is; then think forward to what happens when you click it..



it's a choice between initially communicating a future state or a current state..
the latter being generally accepted..

[Nokatus]

either you didn't undestand what I mean or you think different.

I understand what you mean, believe me

See the Ajax framework example I put in the above post.

[Poster]

If you haven't encountered the use of such GUI elements in other software than Live, see this Ajax framework demo in your browser:

http://extjs.com/deploy/dev/examples/la ... mplex.html

The arrows in the right, left and bottom areas of the screen are telling you that there is an element there, which will close/expand into the direction of the arrow. In this case the icon is a double arrow, but it's being used similarly with the single triangular ones (like the ones in Live), for example in Adobe Lightroom - and previously in Live as well, when showing and hiding the browser, info view or the clip/midi/chain view.

When ever there are expanding areas inside a GUI, opening in different directions like this, I feel this is the intuitive way to go with the arrows.

all i can say is that in that example there is another parameter involved; animation..
the arrows are actually moving to the left/right when clicked..

totally different interaction and makes sense within that context..

[Poster]

either you didn't undestand what I mean or you think different.

I understand what you mean, believe me .

[Nokatus]

it's a choice between initially communicating a future state or a current state..
the latter being generally accepted..

Both ways are generally accepted - it's just that we're talking about different things here.

I'm talking about GUI panel elements being expanded/collapsed in multiple different directions inside the workspace. In my opinion, an icon representing the expansion direction is more intuitive.

You're talking about the tree-like convention, which uses the arrow when the expanding areas are always positioned nicely in relation to the arrow. In Live, they are positioned all over the place, and now the arrow gets rotated even if it's supposed to be a list-like expansion symbol in the sense you mean it.

In my opinion, when you're dealing with panels appearing in the left, right, top and bottom, such symbolism doesn't quite fit it the way a simple directional arrow does

[Nokatus]

all i can say is that in that example there is another parameter involved; animation..
the arrows are actually moving to the left/right when clicked..

totally different interaction and makes sense within that context..

It's being commonly used in non-animated contexts (all the other examples I have mentioned). The thing is, they are panels, not lists or list-like elements.

[Tarekith]

I guess it's just what we expect the arrows to be. I'm like the Nokatus in that when I see those arrows, I instinctively think clicking one will open up a new window/pane/view in the direction the arrow is pointing. I'm not thinking about how other apps use it, or the like. To me it's "click this right pointing arrow to open a pane to the right" , or "to close the pane to it's left, click the left pointing arrow". To me they always reflected what WOULD happen, not the current state.

Must me a mental thing, I look at the new versions and I literally keep thinking it's a graphic corruption, it just looks 'wrong' to me, even though I understand completely the reasoning you guys are pointing out.

[hoffman2k]

This thread is now officially the "Arrow Drinking Game" thread.

"Hips..."

[Poster]

This thread is now officially the "Arrow Drinking Game" thread.

"Hips..."