Ableton Forum

^ I get what you're saying...however the sad (really sad) reality of today's market is that if you want to be competitive with "commercial" tracks, then you gotto get it loud. I don't necessarily subscribe to this, and the mastering I do for others, including myself, leaves quite a bit of dynamics in place, so there isn't ear fatigue and music still feels alive...but if you're trying to get on radio, you gotto play the game a bit.

I'm doing it in Live entirely.
Sometimes I got a Compressor + EQ8 on the Master sometimes bare (=nothing).
As far as it goes I like it but I know this is my great area of ignorance and so needs improvement. So far the tricks and trips I read here in this forums helped a lot. That reddish level on the Master has gone away and the sound is cleaner...

- Best
- Pasha

jeskola wrote:Nothing. I leave it to someone who knows what they are doing

Very funny, +1. If only 'they' were affordable.

Just to add one more angle, I've noticed that on Beatport, many current songs aren't squished to death anymore...it's a nice departure...I think artists are starting to realize that there's plenty of compression going on long after they render, so they are leaving dynamics in their songs, which is a welcome change.

If I'm mastering my own material, then my mastering chain is nothing more than a limiter to get the volume up a bit, then some UV22hr dithering. Anything else I address in the mixdown.

When mastering other people's work, it's more or less the same except I'll use an EQ (usually Sonalksis) to balance their frequency spread a bit better before limiting. Sometimes I'll have to resort to a linear multiband compressor to get the low end sitting right, but that's rare as most producers would rather I told them what to fix in their mixdown to solve any issues (and I do).

Doing other people's music is different than doing my own though, and many times I'll have t use some random tool to fix a specific issue if the client does not want (or can't) fix their mixdown instead.

Pretty much the same advice I give in my mixing and mastering articles really.

Hey Tarekith,

What are your typical limiter settings for INPUT, THRESHOLD and MARGIN?

I know your anti-Loudness Wars and such...so, could you give me your settings and then an estimate of what could be used to get that "club sound". I'm just trying to get my tracks up to the level to match tracks in my DJ set without completely squashing them.

I've done all my EQing in the mixdown and I think I just need the right limiter settings to get the job done.

Those settings are completly dependant on the song your mastering, so there's no settings I can recommend. I typically set my output to -0.2dBFS, and adjust the input until I see about 3-4dB of reduction on the peaks. Some artists ask me to make it louder than this for the club, so sometimes I have to adjust until I see up to 7dB on the reduction meters. It's not my choice, but they're the ones paying for the job, so I give them what they want.

My limiters don't have threshold or margin settings, sorry.

^ agreed, all songs require different settings...I go by similar "guidelines" but for the most part, I use my ears. When you compress the final mix, there's this magic moment as you start pumping up the loudness where things start to shine and shimmer and the sound is phat and warm...shortly afterwards, the sound turns to total shit and sounds pumping and distorted and really bad...Stop there, and dial back down

If you want examples of great mastered albums vs. horribly mastered ones, check out The Cardigans' Long Gone Before Daylight (well any of their records, really, but that one stands out) and then compare that with Madonna's Hard Candy or Nelle Furtado's last record.

It depends on the track, but first and foremost, I do everything in Wavelab. Usually EQ>Sonic Maximizer>Classic Master/Limiter>Dither

I forgot about Dither, which is important and I tend to like POW-R 2 or UV22 HR but again, this is dependent on the song.

Yes, even Bob Katz says, ultimately you give the customer what they want. You can try some gentle persuasion and recommendations, but if that fails then pump the crap out of it and have it sound horrible on CD (and radio) because in this day and age, a Mastering Engineer cannot afford to be picky.

The Mastering Audio (2nd edition) book also proves that it is a myth that louder mixes sound louder on the radio. The way the radio compressors (usually Orbans from the 1980's to early 90's) were not designed to work with hypercompressed material, so they distort and clip it more and that can lead to the mixes sounding weaker and less punchy, so presenting a radio mix that averages -5db or higher is really going to lead to worse sound on the radio.

Tarekith wrote:Those settings are completly dependant on the song your mastering, so there's no settings I can recommend. I typically set my output to -0.2dBFS, and adjust the input until I see about 3-4dB of reduction on the peaks. Some artists ask me to make it louder than this for the club, so sometimes I have to adjust until I see up to 7dB on the reduction meters. It's not my choice, but they're the ones paying for the job, so I give them what they want.

My limiters don't have threshold or margin settings, sorry.

Yeah, i'm using Ozone, which has threshold and margin settings. Been trying to find the right mix between Input and threshold. Anyway, thanks for the reduction info, that was helpful.

For tracks it's usually an EQ8 to cut off low low, really high highs and fine tune something from the mix if needed, a limiter rack I built off Saturator and Comp II, then a bunch of analysis plug-ins, then a dither.

For playing live, it's an EQ8 to get the source material in shape, the limiter rack in case I have to raise my signal, then a 2nd EQ8 to set it for the room

leedsquietman wrote:I forgot about Dither, which is important and I tend to like POW-R 2 or UV22 HR but again, this is dependent on the song.

Nice information mate.

Whats the deal with Dithering?

well, it's pretty complicated but in a nutshell - when you reduce a bit depth i.e. typically 24 bit (many record at 24 bit because they have the capability to do so through their audio card/interface which gives extra headroom) but for CD or mp3 audio, you must reduce it down to 16 bit 44.1 Khz.

If you just resave your 24 bit file as 16 bit without dithering (truncating), it can introduce distortions and artifacts that dithering smooths out. This is a very simple explanation but basically you need dithering if you are reducing the bit rate of a recording and typically this would be from 24 bit to 16 bit. Just add it as the last thing in the chain, Live 7 has the pow-r dithering built into the file render/export screen. If you already recorded in 16 bit, then you do not need (nor would it be desirable) to add dithering.

rbmonosylabik brought up some great points. That the mix is crucial, and most processing, EQIng, individual track compression etc should be done at the time of the mix, rather than post mix in mastering. Ideally you just want to balance levels and frequencies and get the boost you need while trying not to trade off too many dynamics and touch things up, most of the plugins and outboard gear etc. should be invested into the original mix.

Here's some dithering audio examples to make the point more clear:

http://tarekith.com/assets/ditherexamples.zip

and my usual links to my mixdown and mastering guides:

http://tarekith.com/assets/mixdowns.html

http://tarekith.com/assets/mastering.html