wow...i've been wondering about this for so long. i do a LOT of routing to sends and back to audio tracks. i just thought it was a bug.
the plugins this is most noticable on are ones like Glitch and Effectrix...anything that does synced looping to the host. if your CPU is riding pretty high, they won't even be close to the correct position.
i'm not completely clear on the explanation you gave...does this mean that it is unavoidable in every host program?
'Automatic latency compensation' TRULY sucks!
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Smellhound
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Smellhound
- Posts: 369
- Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 3:36 am
- Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA
- Contact:
wow...i've been wondering about this for so long. i do a LOT of routing to sends and back to audio tracks. i just thought it was a bug.
the plugins this is most noticable on are ones like Glitch and Effectrix...anything that does synced looping to the host. if your CPU is riding pretty high, they won't even be close to the correct position.
i'm not completely clear on the explanation you gave...does this mean that it is unavoidable in every host program?
the plugins this is most noticable on are ones like Glitch and Effectrix...anything that does synced looping to the host. if your CPU is riding pretty high, they won't even be close to the correct position.
i'm not completely clear on the explanation you gave...does this mean that it is unavoidable in every host program?
Today I nearly lost it my brothers!
I was working (with Live naturally) and opening some older projects. All good and dandy. But when I for example touched a 'track delay' box to adjust tracks everything goes straight to hell and the house of cards comes tumbling down (my projects 'track delay' settings that is.
It is so weird that it works if you don't touch it but brakes down if you adjust anything (even if you would adjust it right back...).
It all has something to do with bussing and auxes and feeding the auxes back to busses and using lots of plugins, both ables own and 3rd partiys. ALSO the newest culprit seem to be the audio tracks input settings: once I turned couple of misbehaving tracks input settings to 'none' they starterd acting better.
AS A DEFAULT THERE SHOULD BE AN OPTION TO HAVE NEW AUDIO TRACKS INPUT SET AS 'NONE' ! Thak you very much.
I'm actually forced to spend lots of time fixing these timing errors and it's a lot time away making music.
Cheers,
I was working (with Live naturally) and opening some older projects. All good and dandy. But when I for example touched a 'track delay' box to adjust tracks everything goes straight to hell and the house of cards comes tumbling down (my projects 'track delay' settings that is.
It is so weird that it works if you don't touch it but brakes down if you adjust anything (even if you would adjust it right back...).
It all has something to do with bussing and auxes and feeding the auxes back to busses and using lots of plugins, both ables own and 3rd partiys. ALSO the newest culprit seem to be the audio tracks input settings: once I turned couple of misbehaving tracks input settings to 'none' they starterd acting better.
AS A DEFAULT THERE SHOULD BE AN OPTION TO HAVE NEW AUDIO TRACKS INPUT SET AS 'NONE' ! Thak you very much.
I'm actually forced to spend lots of time fixing these timing errors and it's a lot time away making music.
Cheers,
As long as a plugin reports wrong or zero latency it is simply not possible for Live to say if this is correct or if the plug is "lying" without testing it.
Even if you test it, the latency can change any team, as you experienced yourself using the Ozone plugin.
Another thought: if Live would be able to to find out the value is wrong and it tells the user, what then? Do you want to start adjusting all track delays by hand as soon as you add another plugin? If so, what would be the difference to simply deactivating your plugin delay compensation and do it by hand in the first place?
You mention a solution in Nuendo: This sounds interesting, which feature exactly do you mean? How does it work? Can you explain?
An addtitional personal note: It is far more motivating for everyone if you try to keep you posts technical instead completely switching to rant mode. "Ableton fix your shit" does not really motivate, esp. if the main cause for the problem are misbehaving third party products.
Thanks mate!
Dom
Even if you test it, the latency can change any team, as you experienced yourself using the Ozone plugin.
Another thought: if Live would be able to to find out the value is wrong and it tells the user, what then? Do you want to start adjusting all track delays by hand as soon as you add another plugin? If so, what would be the difference to simply deactivating your plugin delay compensation and do it by hand in the first place?
You mention a solution in Nuendo: This sounds interesting, which feature exactly do you mean? How does it work? Can you explain?
An addtitional personal note: It is far more motivating for everyone if you try to keep you posts technical instead completely switching to rant mode. "Ableton fix your shit" does not really motivate, esp. if the main cause for the problem are misbehaving third party products.
Thanks mate!
Dom
ableton support team
[email protected]
[email protected]
Dom thanks for getting back so quick,
Yeah the original mail is actually dated some time ago and the one today, well .. is from today. Similar but yet a little bit different.
I try to keep the tone proper as I do agree that the ranting is not leading anybody nowhere. So here goes:
Yes I do understand the reporting delay concept well, and I'm really in this as a user trying to report a problem which I can't see to resolve myself.
Of course I use the delay compensation, and would like to use it also in my work as I do not have time to fix everything by hand. The NUENDO concept is basically that the program generates a list where you can enable and disable vst pugins (would be great for able also IMHO) and also you can check the reported latency of plugin on the same page.
The thing is Live in most of the stuations DOES compensate of the latency just as it should be. The problem arises when in certain conditions Live fails to do it (project with lots of busses, auxes feeding back to busses= general sybmixing). I'm trying to pinpoint the problem but it only arises in very big projects ( about 60 tracks and about 200+ plugins.) so finding what causes what is not so simple anymore.
Also for example today it was very weird that the project works (latency is correlated ok) in the begnning but when I touch on some 'track delay' parameters the track suddenly 'jumps' being in a very wrong position AND further adjustments of the 'track delay' parameter DO NO HAVE any more effect.
I did however discover that turning the audio input channel of a track to 'none' did help in some occasions.
Would there be a way to make all the plugins report their delays again to Live so it could re-adjust the delay compensation.
Cheers,
Yeah the original mail is actually dated some time ago and the one today, well .. is from today. Similar but yet a little bit different.
I try to keep the tone proper as I do agree that the ranting is not leading anybody nowhere. So here goes:
Yes I do understand the reporting delay concept well, and I'm really in this as a user trying to report a problem which I can't see to resolve myself.
Of course I use the delay compensation, and would like to use it also in my work as I do not have time to fix everything by hand. The NUENDO concept is basically that the program generates a list where you can enable and disable vst pugins (would be great for able also IMHO) and also you can check the reported latency of plugin on the same page.
The thing is Live in most of the stuations DOES compensate of the latency just as it should be. The problem arises when in certain conditions Live fails to do it (project with lots of busses, auxes feeding back to busses= general sybmixing). I'm trying to pinpoint the problem but it only arises in very big projects ( about 60 tracks and about 200+ plugins.) so finding what causes what is not so simple anymore.
Also for example today it was very weird that the project works (latency is correlated ok) in the begnning but when I touch on some 'track delay' parameters the track suddenly 'jumps' being in a very wrong position AND further adjustments of the 'track delay' parameter DO NO HAVE any more effect.
I did however discover that turning the audio input channel of a track to 'none' did help in some occasions.
Would there be a way to make all the plugins report their delays again to Live so it could re-adjust the delay compensation.
Cheers,
I hear you, and yes, obviously it can get tricky if the set grows and grows and the routing becomes really complex.
So, what is the solution here?
Step 1 would be to contact the companies behind your plugins that report wrong latency - as long as the values are correct the PDC in Live does a pretty good job - and if it doesn't we really don't have a chance in compensating for it correctly.
Step 2 is watching your projects and trying to find out if there's anything going wrong with big sets where you can put your finder on and report it to us, only this way we can try to recreate and find a problem.
I know it can be hard in case of big sets, esp. because of all the dependencies (is monitoring activated for a channel, what is going on with the routing to the sends, maybe back to some tracks etc,) but i'm pretty sure you can work it out and [email protected] will assist you if you stumble over questions giving you headaches.
Cheers,
Dom
So, what is the solution here?
Step 1 would be to contact the companies behind your plugins that report wrong latency - as long as the values are correct the PDC in Live does a pretty good job - and if it doesn't we really don't have a chance in compensating for it correctly.
Step 2 is watching your projects and trying to find out if there's anything going wrong with big sets where you can put your finder on and report it to us, only this way we can try to recreate and find a problem.
I know it can be hard in case of big sets, esp. because of all the dependencies (is monitoring activated for a channel, what is going on with the routing to the sends, maybe back to some tracks etc,) but i'm pretty sure you can work it out and [email protected] will assist you if you stumble over questions giving you headaches.
Cheers,
Dom
ableton support team
[email protected]
[email protected]
This latency actually also happens when simply using live built-in effects.
If for example you send several MIDI instruments tracks to an audio track (not a return track) and then send an effect on that same track, there will be a delay between the fx and the adio track.
To make it clear the routing goes like this : MIDI 1 + MIDI 2 +...+ MIDI n --> Audio track 1 and then you send whatever delay from Return Track 1 on Audio Track 1's channel strip.
So this seems to be an issue coming from within live, and how it handles the internal routing. I'll try and post a Live project file later on when i got time.
If for example you send several MIDI instruments tracks to an audio track (not a return track) and then send an effect on that same track, there will be a delay between the fx and the adio track.
To make it clear the routing goes like this : MIDI 1 + MIDI 2 +...+ MIDI n --> Audio track 1 and then you send whatever delay from Return Track 1 on Audio Track 1's channel strip.
So this seems to be an issue coming from within live, and how it handles the internal routing. I'll try and post a Live project file later on when i got time.
Hm, couldn't exactly follow the last part.opuswerk wrote: To make it clear the routing goes like this : MIDI 1 + MIDI 2 +...+ MIDI n --> Audio track 1 and then you send whatever delay from Return Track 1 on Audio Track 1's channel strip.
So you use "audio to" set to audio track 1 and how does the return track come into play now?
Create a little demo setup and post it in Bugs&Problems!
Cheers,
Dom
ableton support team
[email protected]
[email protected]
Hello Dom, nice to see you're keeping an eye on the thread 
What happens is i use the send knob on Audio track 1 that is receiving all the audio from the MIDI instruemnts tracks.
For example i have 1 dedicated MIDI track per sound of my drum kit (snare, hi-hats, cymbals, toms) they all get sent to an audio track called drum (i guess it's some kind of bus - but i'm not sure of the terminology -)(track inputs are set to in). then let's say i want to apply a reverb to that drum "bus" that reverb will be slightly late if its output is not set to master.
It's way more obvious when using a delay btw.
Will do an example file when i got time. Busy with uni work atm.
In the bugs and problems forum ? or should i mail it straight to the [email protected] ?
What happens is i use the send knob on Audio track 1 that is receiving all the audio from the MIDI instruemnts tracks.
For example i have 1 dedicated MIDI track per sound of my drum kit (snare, hi-hats, cymbals, toms) they all get sent to an audio track called drum (i guess it's some kind of bus - but i'm not sure of the terminology -)(track inputs are set to in). then let's say i want to apply a reverb to that drum "bus" that reverb will be slightly late if its output is not set to master.
It's way more obvious when using a delay btw.
Will do an example file when i got time. Busy with uni work atm.
In the bugs and problems forum ? or should i mail it straight to the [email protected] ?
Where do you send the audio of the return track to, if not to the master?opuswerk wrote:Hello Dom, nice to see you're keeping an eye on the thread :)
What happens is i use the send knob on Audio track 1 that is receiving all the audio from the MIDI instruemnts tracks.
For example i have 1 dedicated MIDI track per sound of my drum kit (snare, hi-hats, cymbals, toms) they all get sent to an audio track called drum (i guess it's some kind of bus - but i'm not sure of the terminology -)(track inputs are set to in). then let's say i want to apply a reverb to that drum "bus" that reverb will be slightly late if its output is not set to master.
It's way more obvious when using a delay btw.
Please mention that in the bugs&problems post! Also if the return channels own sends are activated or not is very important.
Tell me about it, me too. :)opuswerk wrote: Will do an example file when i got time. Busy with uni work atm.
As it seems to be of general interest it is a good fit for the bugs&problems forum!opuswerk wrote: In the bugs and problems forum ? or should i mail it straight to the [email protected] ?
Cheers,
Dom
ableton support team
[email protected]
[email protected]