WE WANT LINUX SUPPORT!!!!

dom · Post by **dom** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 1:06 pm

As NativeOps is not logged in and refuses to answer my pm and email for hours now, i hereby announce blanking out two offending statements from his posts while still giving him the second chance to react to my requests.
If there's no reaction or new postings in the next hours/days i'll deactivate the account.

Dom

autodidactic · Post by **autodidactic** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 1:45 pm

dom

Since you're on here. I'd like to politely ask you a question similar to the one this thread was intended to ask. What is Ableton's opinion on Linux support? If Ableton is not interested currently, what factors would need to change for the company to reconsider? Would there need to be more hardware vendors, plugin developers etc? I'm personally not dead set on having linux support but I feel the proposition is interesting enough and I feel there are enough people that are very gung ho about it to ask these questions.

Thanks

esky · Post by **esky** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 1:52 pm

@NativeOps...:

12 years waiting for another operating system to come, that's what i call a waste of time. Others musician make tons of music in that time without complaining. Maybe you should paint or take photographs or cook? No OS necessary...

dcease · Post by **dcease** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:04 pm

NO "WE" DON'T!!!

it took me 2 years to get my xp pc running smoothly (my first pc, lol), and it took a year and a half to figure out what osx was doing with my files, among a few other different quirks. i would rather not learn a new os... two is enough, thank you kindly. i'd rather go back to hardware, then learn ANOTHER os.

Khazul · Post by **Khazul** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:10 pm

Rave wrote:I guess Ableton doesn't want to drive its customer base away that use the forum regardless of how ignorant / racist they can be.

This must be why political and other irrelevent rubbish is so strongly encouraged here... ? Of those I know who dont even bother looking in here - that is close to #1 reason.

As for the N*** and L**** - one just plain evil, the other just useful as downtime entertainment for geeks, so no - dont waste time on it - Reliable midi sync around looping would be a better use of time

dom · Post by **dom** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:22 pm

autodidactic wrote:dom

Since you're on here. I'd like to politely ask you a question similar to the one this thread was intended to ask. What is Ableton's opinion on Linux support? If Ableton is not interested currently, what factors would need to change for the company to reconsider? Would there need to be more hardware vendors, plugin developers etc? I'm personally not dead set on having linux support but I feel the proposition is interesting enough and I feel there are enough people that are very gung ho about it to ask these questions.

Thanks

Hi Autodidactic,

Ableton is a company, the very first factor before considering anything else would be:
Would this be a profitable project?

We currently sell software for Win and OSX - and we know first hand how hard it actually is to keep such a business profitable - even with those 2 "mainstream" OS.

Counter questions:

Do you actually use some kind of Linux? What's your experience in this area?

OSX is based on unix and i personally think this is the best OS out there for audio tasks at the moment. What would be the technical benefit in support Linux over OSX in your opinion?

You didn't buy Live yet, but using the trial. Would you buy it if there's a Linux version available?

Cheers,
Dom

mkelly · Post by **mkelly** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:48 pm

dom wrote: Ableton is a company, the very first factor before considering anything else would be:
Would this be a profitable project?

We currently sell software for Win and OSX - and we know first hand how hard it actually is to keep such a business profitable - even with those 2 "mainstream" OS.

Sorry to break in to someone else's dialogue, but to me what you're saying above puts us in a real chicken and egg scenario. It sounds like you're citing the ROI as being a big factor. And as Linux is not yet mainstream the ROI will be less than you guys need. However, support from software vendors such as yourselves may be what takes Linux into the mainstream.

dom wrote: Counter questions:

Do you actually use some kind of Linux? What's your experience in this area?

OSX is based on unix and i personally think this is the best OS out there for audio tasks at the moment. What would be the technical benefit in support Linux over OSX in your opinion?

Again, I'm not Autodidactic, but I'll answer these too. Maybe you could think about surveying formally

I've used Linux for a reasonably long time - since about 1998. I've used it from the perspective of server admin, developer, and desktop user. I've written for Linux Format (UK) magazine as a so-called expert.

I dumped Linux on my desktop for OSX last year. As you say, it was UNIX-based (which I love), but had way more maturity as an OS than any Linux distro I had tried.

I found that despite all the progress that was being made on the Linux scene, I was spending more time getting the machine working right, than I was using it. In my opinion, the fractured nature of Linux distributions is it's biggest strength and it's biggest weakness. Developers want a stable platform, and not the moving target that Linux presents.

Where I feel there could be serious progress in Linux audio is in the adoption of a standard platform that all audio software developers can target. That could be a single distro, or a distro agnostic platform. This platform should be driven by the audio software developers so that fits all of their needs. When we see that (if it's not there already - I'm slightly out of the loop after a year in OSX land) then I think it would be nice to see the Abletons, Native Instruments, whatever of this world put a little money into solid ports of their software to that platform. Yes it's gonna cost you guys a bit up front, but surely the opportunity to ultimately deploy your software on a platform that you have more of an input to than Apple/Microsoft give you must be an incentive?

BTW I still use Linux daily for server usage and my development environment in work.

Sorry for the ramble.

autodidactic · Post by **autodidactic** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:59 pm

dom wrote:
autodidactic wrote:dom

Since you're on here. I'd like to politely ask you a question similar to the one this thread was intended to ask. What is Ableton's opinion on Linux support? If Ableton is not interested currently, what factors would need to change for the company to reconsider? Would there need to be more hardware vendors, plugin developers etc? I'm personally not dead set on having linux support but I feel the proposition is interesting enough and I feel there are enough people that are very gung ho about it to ask these questions.

Thanks
Hi Autodidactic,

Ableton is a company, the very first factor before considering anything else would be:
Would this be a profitable project?

We currently sell software for Win and OSX - and we know first hand how hard it actually is to keep such a business profitable - even with those 2 "mainstream" OS.

Counter questions:

Do you actually use some kind of Linux? What's your experience in this area?

OSX is based on unix and i personally think this is the best OS out there for audio tasks at the moment. What would be the technical benefit in support Linux over OSX in your opinion?

You didn't buy Live yet, but using the trial. Would you buy it if there's a Linux version available?

Cheers,
Dom

I am studying web design/development and I use Linux servers for those purposes.

Actually, the only benefit to me personally would be financial. With the native horsepower available I'd like to ditch my outboard gear and mixer and do sequencing and sound reinforcement in the box. Unfortunately, I don't believe any macbook would let me do that, but I think a quad core desktop with FX handled by a DSP card might. I love OSX but the OS is tied to the hardware and the only way I could get a quad core machine with PCIe slots would be by getting a Mac Pro. I don't have the money to spend on a Mac Pro and certainly don't have the money to replace it prematurely after lugging it around from gig to gig. A custom built PC would much better suit my needs but I really despise Windows. The only other alternative is Linux. I have my own hypotheses as to why Ableton doesn't support it but chose to ask the questions to see if my hunches were correct or if there was some other reason Linux is out.

As far as whether I'd buy it or not? To be honest this time trial is the one that got me to break down and buy it. My birthday is next week and I'll be getting it as a gift to myself lol. You have me as a customer. It's not the possibility of Linux support that wins me over, it's the odd time signature support. That was the last piece of the puzzle. I play Greek music and there are many tunes in a variety of time signatures. Sometimes there are time signature changes within a single song so this is the last feature I've been waiting for.

Thanks for talking to us about this. I felt the Linux issue was worth discussing, but the initial delivery was somewhat unfortunate.

six_o_clock_crow · Post by **six_o_clock_crow** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:56 pm

Personally, I think it is unreasonable to expect Ableton to devote time to developing a Linux version of Live. What other major software runs on three platforms? Pro-Tools? Cubase? Logic? Sonar? Reason? FL Studio?

Why is it Ableton's responsibility to take Linux mainstream? What kind of return would that get on the investment of resources in developing Live for Linux? And I am no Linux expert, but the problem I find with it is that you are limited in the audio interfaces and MIDI controllers you can use due to drivers not being available.

Dom - please pour development time into getting Live rock solid in every department, and PLEASE add to/improve the options for manipulating audio loops in a performance context - i.e. the original Live concept.

Maybe I've just been lucky, but over the past 7 years I have always used PC's for making music and I can't think of one major problem with Windows that hasn't been able to be solved with help from forums or manufacturers. All I've seen is a steady improvement in the ease of use, and reliability, of both software and peripherals.

I've used high end PC's and cheap off the shelf ones. I currently use a Sony Vaio laptop and did have issues with it until I disabled all of Vista's fancy graphic stuff. But, y'know, I just sorted it out and it works fine now... and then I got on with making some music, rather than get myself wound up by devoting my time to an anti-Microsoft/Apple stance on a point of principal.

Sorry for the moan, but I sometimes think people forget how easy we have it these days.

hacktheplanet · Post by **hacktheplanet** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:04 pm

dom wrote:OSX is based on unix and i personally think this is the best OS out there for audio tasks at the moment.

THERE YA GO FOLKS! Straight from the SOURCE.
This should be referred to every time a windows vs osx debate comes up.

abort · Post by **abort** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:09 pm

dam guy's why get so worked up over a OS ....FOCUS People!!!

We are sound designers and producers, just get that dam computer to work focus on the task at hand. No rally or customer group is going to make this happen.

I still want ableton to just run on its own, boot up and begin! lock myself in the studio and don't see the sun for a month.

Martyn · Post by **Martyn** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:41 pm

This thread is so sad on so many levels.

@ the OP, I really hope you've calmed down enough to see that all you achieved there was to paint Linux in a very bad light for anyone who hasn't experienced it yet.

I'd love Linux support as I've said on a number of occasions, I also fully understand that it's not likely to happen with any current dual platform software, the incentive is simply not there yet.

If music happens at all on Linux it'll probably be via a new software package coded specifically, yes I know software exists already but it doesn't fire my guns at all. I do have to admit though, that if somebody coded a new audio app for Linux that did work out for me I'd ditch Live in a heartbeat.
I really do think that the audio community (some of us anyway) would benefiet hugely from a third platform option, computer music making has become really stale, (imho) most of the innovation having been done a while ago. Show me something really new software wise! Logic, ProTools, Cubarse, Live, MaxMSP, all more than 7 years old, some much more than that in paradigm.

Sorry for this thread, the OP does not represent Linux users, he's just angry and wants another option without having any experience of it, he's probably never usesd it at all.

m

nebulae · Post by **nebulae** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:52 pm

six_o_clock_crow wrote:Personally, I think it is unreasonable to expect Ableton to devote time to developing a Linux version of Live. What other major software runs on three platforms? Pro-Tools? Cubase? Logic? Sonar? Reason? FL Studio?

One answer: Reaper.

I think Ableton should at least figure out why Live doesn't work under WINE. A standard windows application should work under WINE.

But I also agree that resources should be spent on what's more important, and there are a lot of features still on the table to make Live the DAW it deserves rather than another OS port.

nebulae · Post by **nebulae** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:53 pm

the_planet wrote:
dom wrote:OSX is based on unix and i personally think this is the best OS out there for audio tasks at the moment.
THERE YA GO FOLKS! Straight from the SOURCE.
This should be referred to every time a windows vs osx debate comes up.

I don't flame very often, so once in a while is ok...

Go fuck yourself you ignorant cunt.

inmazevo · Post by **inmazevo** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:58 pm

I think Ableton should at least figure out why Live doesn't work under WINE. A standard windows application should work under WINE.

Just as a curiosity:
If Live works on a standard Windows OS, but not on WINE, how is that an Ableton issue?
Wouldn't that be a WINE issue. It's their version of the API that Live's failing on, after all... sounds like they haven't gotten the hooks quite right in their use of the Windows API.

(As a side note, I like WINE... just viewing it from a testing perspective... if I were looking at this at work, I'd look for the odd man out and write the bug there, which seems to be WINE, rather than Live).

- zevo