Ableton Forum

goons!! gotta love wine in a box on a hot summer's day, just add ice. might be my goal for the weekend, hike down to the beach and polish off a goon.

stjohn wrote:EW: i found your alcholholc background to be less than convincing... getting drunk at a bassball game? is that not the whole point? missing work? jesus, here in ireland there is something like 3billion euros economic loss each year from people calling in sick on mondays.. people go to pubs on their lunch. Germans have beers for breakfast. Your pont of view kinda strikes me as the same point of view as the therapists who prescribe Prozac for emo teenagers.

wow man, that's really harsh on a very personal level. the reality of alcoholism is harsher than I think you realize.

Ewi - all respect to your story, mad mad mad props on drying up and for your honesty. I watched someone I know go through the process, talk about catharsis. heavy shit.

Tone Deft wrote:goons!! gotta love wine in a box on a hot summer's day, just add ice. might be my goal for the weekend, hike down to the beach and polish off a goon.

stjohn wrote:EW: i found your alcholholc background to be less than convincing... getting drunk at a bassball game? is that not the whole point? missing work? jesus, here in ireland there is something like 3billion euros economic loss each year from people calling in sick on mondays.. people go to pubs on their lunch. Germans have beers for breakfast. Your pont of view kinda strikes me as the same point of view as the therapists who prescribe Prozac for emo teenagers.

wow man, that's really harsh on a very personal level. the reality of alcoholism is harsher than I think you realize.

Ewi - all respect to your story, mad mad mad props on drying up and for your honesty. I watched someone I know go through the process, talk about catharsis. heavy shit.

TD
See, that's just it (all kidding aside). When you are an alcoholic and have spent a few years sober, you come to grips with the fact that NOBODY can truly understand what the disease of alcoholism is about, other than another alcoholic. That's a fact and is precisely why AA is universally considered a great first step in getting help. You have Alcoholics reaching out to other alcoholics and believe me, it works both ways. The seasoned drinker benefits from the company of the seasoned recovering alcoholic and vice versa. (no pun intended)

So all the joking and good 'ole boy assessments really don't mean a thing. Believe it when whoever stated "if you think you have a problem, you most likely do" That's 2+2. It's just the most basic of survival instincts kicking in.

stjohn wrote:Germans have beers for breakfast.

What!? Who told you that?

ya crazy.. chems are fun but in the end they can really take you down.
i was in one band that had an issue with smack. in was a fun stoner rock band that i ended up playing bass for. they needed a second guitar so i brought in one of my homies.. we played one show, got paid, then i didn't see or hear from the singer or the drummer for 2 weeks... they spent the money, sold the drums, and banged it up lol... needless to say that was the end of that.
i've had other bands simply fail due to alcoholism.

now i'm no saint and i still partake on minor indulgences but i chilled way out like 10 years ago.. i decided to focus on music and stop spending all my money on good times lol. i've been on drinking binges, LSD binges, coke binges, combo binges...lol.. i have live the rock-n-roll life pretty hard core.. but now i just want to play music.

i over dosed and was institutionalized when i was 14 for about 3 months...
they all said i was an addict and i would end up living under the boardwalk of Atlantic city. what ever lol... i partied and wasted my life for a good 10 years but hey that was the privileges of youth.

i think some people grow out of drinkin and druggin (if they survive) like i did but some people have some serious issues that will never go away... like some of my friends.. one of which died from an over dose at 50 and other that are career alcoholics...

all i can say is the sooner you jump ship the sooner you can get some where in life.... we all missed out on the 60's, 70's, 80's, hell and even 90's.. i bet these days record labels wont pay your heroin dealer for you.

odds of getting somewhere in life are better if you don't blow all your money on "good times"

if you think you have a drinking problem just think of all the gear you could buy if you stopped drinking...
transfer that energy into gear lust lol.
it also helps when you grow tired of parties that revolve around multiple keg's of bear. freaking boring lol.. stupid people and stupid conversation.

i also have been dealing with drunks for years.. it grows old

these days i love me a fine beer (i'm on a porter kick atm)and a fine scotch.. but i really really hate being drunk.

edit:

i cant stand the way America handles drugs, alcohol and tobacco you would think they make lots of money off of it or something

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Li6MCWIWgw <---youtube link
^^ youtube link

b0unce wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Li6MCWIWgw <---youtube link
^^ youtube link

This video is not available in your country.

Spikee wrote:Oh I get the point, but discounting unhealthy lifestyle choices because of social circumstances is like convincing yourself that being a thief is acceptable because all of your friends are thieves.

Or, for that matter, a software pirate on a forum full of crackers!

Spikee wrote:That doesn't mean that you're in a room with 15 well-adjusted people, it just means that you're hanging out with 15 theives.

LOL - the answer to any alcoholic's self-doubt: surround yourself with "lower companions" - that always works wonders!

Spikee wrote:Water seeks its own level, you know what I mean?

Or in this case, whiskey!

Spikee wrote:It would be awkward to be slamming down drinks with a bunch of people that didn't drink, would it not?

I used to avoid those types like 'da plague!

Spikee wrote:...and if you decide that you're going to quit drinking, true friends would stand behind that. I lost a lot of "friends" when I decided to sober up, but a few stuck around because it was true friendship and it didn't matter to them much. And looking back on that, losing a bunch of people over taking care of myself was well worth figuring which of them truly had my back.

Exactly...the friends stick around to give you props...and the drinking buddies seek out other "lower companions"...

Great post, Spikee! And remember: "quitting is for losers!!!"

Can anyone confirm that in AA one of the 'steps' to recovery involves putting your faith in God or some other deity?

mickey disco wrote:Can anyone confirm that in AA one of the 'steps' to recovery involves putting your faith in God or some other deity?

Alcohol is only mentioned once in the 12 steps but there are 9 references to God. It should be noted that every time that God is mentioned that it is a higher power of the person's understanding, not a religiously-affiliated God. Some people that already have faith transition easily into that aspect of the program, and some people really struggle with it. Many people have had to put the "group conscience" in as their higher power, which means they believed in the ideas expressed in meetings by the people attending as a means to restore them to health. There's really no right and wrong way to tap into something greater than yourself and it's frankly not a concern in the program, all that people in AA generally care about is that you're getting sober.

The program I work used the 12 steps, and I entered the program myself somewhere between an atheist and an agnostic, it depended on what day you asked me. After 3 months of working this program I went to court on some alcohol-related charges that I was facing and was sentenced to jail time... desperate and in despair, I started praying while in jail and my prayers were laughable, it wasn't really praying but more like broadcasting, really. What I found though was that when I did it in earnest it actually helped a lot. It ended up making a 98 day stay in my county's justice system bearable. And of course as I'm seeing results stem from my efforts, my perception of a higher power narrowed into a finer scope. Nowadays, I really couldn't tell you what church to go find the thing that I call God or if there's even a church out there that prays to the God of my understanding, but he's my God, someone that I trust and someone that cares, and that's enough for me.

So, why God? I've discovered the answer to that and it's remarkably effective. If I was to be willing to make the changes in my life needed to push forward with a program of recovery, then I needed to stop playing God and exerting my will all over every affair in my life. When I try to control every situation, inevitably not everything goes my way and it just fills me with resentment and anger, which are 2 triggers to make me want to go out and drink. When I'm putting my will into the hands of the God that I understand however, I'm not trying to control anything and I'm willing to accept whatever happens. And as a direct result of that all things are more manageable, both good and bad. When I'm not trying to exert my will over my life, I'm also able to focus on the blessings in my life instead of the things going wrong in it, not to mention that I have faith that things will get better -- something that I lacked entirely when I was drinking.

I had to have faith that the "friends" that I would lose from sobering up would be replaced, and they have. I had to have faith that enduring life's less glamorous situations would usher in a phase full of rebound, hope and happiness, and that also came true. I had to have faith that I would have fun when I sobered up, and indeed I do. And most importantly, I had to have faith that changing the way that I live on a daily basis would allow for a new and better life to begin, and it has.

I hope that sheds some light on this element of AA.

Spikee wrote:

mickey disco wrote:Can anyone confirm that in AA one of the 'steps' to recovery involves putting your faith in God or some other deity?

Alcohol is only mentioned once in the 12 steps but there are 9 references to God. It should be noted that every time that God is mentioned that it is a higher power of the person's understanding, not a religiously-affiliated God. Some people that already have faith transition easily into that aspect of the program, and some people really struggle with it. Many people have had to put the "group conscience" in as their higher power, which means they believed in the ideas expressed in meetings by the people attending as a means to restore them to health. There's really no right and wrong way to tap into something greater than yourself and it's frankly not a concern in the program, all that people in AA generally care about is that you're getting sober.

The program I work used the 12 steps, and I entered the program myself somewhere between an atheist and an agnostic, it depended on what day you asked me. After 3 months of working this program I went to court on some alcohol-related charges that I was facing and was sentenced to jail time... desperate and in despair, I started praying while in jail and my prayers were laughable, it wasn't really praying but more like broadcasting, really. What I found though was that when I did it in earnest it actually helped a lot. It ended up making a 98 day stay in my county's justice system bearable. And of course as I'm seeing results stem from my efforts, my perception of a higher power narrowed into a finer scope. Nowadays, I really couldn't tell you what church to go find the thing that I call God or if there's even a church out there that prays to the God of my understanding, but he's my God, someone that I trust and someone that cares, and that's enough for me.

So, why God? I've discovered the answer to that and it's remarkably effective. If I was to be willing to make the changes in my life needed to push forward with a program of recovery, then I needed to stop playing God and exerting my will all over every affair in my life. When I try to control every situation, inevitably not everything goes my way and it just fills me with resentment and anger, which are 2 triggers to make me want to go out and drink. When I'm putting my will into the hands of the God that I understand however, I'm not trying to control anything and I'm willing to accept whatever happens. And as a direct result of that all things are more manageable, both good and bad. When I'm not trying to exert my will over my life, I'm also able to focus on the blessings in my life instead of the things going wrong in it, not to mention that I have faith that things will get better -- something that I lacked entirely when I was drinking.

I had to have faith that the "friends" that I would lose from sobering up would be replaced, and they have. I had to have faith that enduring life's less glamorous situations would usher in a phase full of rebound, hope and happiness, and that also came true. I had to have faith that I would have fun when I sobered up, and indeed I do. And most importantly, I had to have faith that changing the way that I live on a daily basis would allow for a new and better life to begin, and it has.

I hope that sheds some light on this element of AA.

Yes, a very interesting and informative post - thanks. If I ever felt that I had a drink/drug problem, that would be the aspect of a 'formal' recovery programme that would be most difficult for me to engage with. Although having said that, my current religous beliefs mirror those of your pre-rehab self, so maybe if things got that bad I would become more open to these ideas. As things stand though, I find it difficult to get past the idea that recovery involves replacing one crutch (alcohol/drugs) with another (faith). If sobriety is the outcome, maybe that's not such a bad thing

Spikee wrote:
Oh I get the point, but discounting unhealthy lifestyle choices because of social circumstances is like convincing yourself that being a thief is acceptable because all of your friends are thieves. That doesn't mean that you're in a room with 15 well-adjusted people, it just means that you're hanging out with 15 theives.

Social situations don't make a difference when they're just another excuse. Water seeks its own level, you know what I mean? Maybe your social circles involve a lot of drinking because you made it that way, and because you gravitated to the people that wanted to go out drinking often, could drink a lot and make your own drinking feel normal. It would be awkward to be slamming down drinks with a bunch of people that didn't drink, would it not?

As far as your friends, I don't think the question is what you'll do with them but rather, what they'll do with you. People have a responsibility to maintain their health and if you decide that you're going to quit drinking, true friends would stand behind that. I lost a lot of "friends" when I decided to sober up, but a few stuck around because it was true friendship and it didn't matter to them much. And looking back on that, losing a bunch of people over taking care of myself was well worth figuring which of them truly had my back.

I'm not discounting the health implications at all, just saying that someone who goes along with the crowd maybe isn't as hopelessly addicted as someone who finds themselves getting way more hammered than those around them or getting drunk on their own. That's all. It's true you have to look after yourself regardless of what other people are doing.

You guys shot Rave down pretty bad for suggesting that the situation the OP described was pretty standard in England and that maybe he could just try and keep it in check rather than ditch the demon drink altogether. Obviously, only the OP knows his situation and it's totally up to him what to do. But Rave was only voicing an opinion.

The fact is, in this country, the pub is probably the most important communal meeting point. Regardless of whether you're there to get drunk, have a couple of quiet drinks or if you just hit the orange juice all night. Amercians go to see therapists to talk about their problems. We phone a mate and go to the boozer. Although, if your problem is drinking, it's probably best to find another venue.

Anyway, I was kind of joking when I said I didn't know what I'd do with mates. My friends are my friends. I don't have "lower companions" or "drinking buddies". In fact, I find the idea quite funny, yet a bit disturbing. Kind of like Moe's bar in the Simpsons. I don't gravitate towards people because they drink, but most of my friends happen to enjoy a few quiet drinks. It's me going out to listen to loud electronic music in a dark crowded room they don't get.

Big V wrote:

stjohn wrote:Germans have beers for breakfast.

What!? Who told you that?

coming out of Tresor, berlin, onto a mini-rave down by the river, we stopped to get some us some beverages, only to find construction workers having a pre-work beer-brekkie.
there, by the riverside, my eyes bulging out slightly past the trace of saliva-gick on my mouth, i kindled a newfound appreciation for the ways of the german.

mickey disco wrote:

Spikee wrote:

mickey disco wrote:Can anyone confirm that in AA one of the 'steps' to recovery involves putting your faith in God or some other deity?

Alcohol is only mentioned once in the 12 steps but there are 9 references to God. It should be noted that every time that God is mentioned that it is a higher power of the person's understanding, not a religiously-affiliated God. Some people that already have faith transition easily into that aspect of the program, and some people really struggle with it. Many people have had to put the "group conscience" in as their higher power, which means they believed in the ideas expressed in meetings by the people attending as a means to restore them to health. There's really no right and wrong way to tap into something greater than yourself and it's frankly not a concern in the program, all that people in AA generally care about is that you're getting sober.

The program I work used the 12 steps, and I entered the program myself somewhere between an atheist and an agnostic, it depended on what day you asked me. After 3 months of working this program I went to court on some alcohol-related charges that I was facing and was sentenced to jail time... desperate and in despair, I started praying while in jail and my prayers were laughable, it wasn't really praying but more like broadcasting, really. What I found though was that when I did it in earnest it actually helped a lot. It ended up making a 98 day stay in my county's justice system bearable. And of course as I'm seeing results stem from my efforts, my perception of a higher power narrowed into a finer scope. Nowadays, I really couldn't tell you what church to go find the thing that I call God or if there's even a church out there that prays to the God of my understanding, but he's my God, someone that I trust and someone that cares, and that's enough for me.

So, why God? I've discovered the answer to that and it's remarkably effective. If I was to be willing to make the changes in my life needed to push forward with a program of recovery, then I needed to stop playing God and exerting my will all over every affair in my life. When I try to control every situation, inevitably not everything goes my way and it just fills me with resentment and anger, which are 2 triggers to make me want to go out and drink. When I'm putting my will into the hands of the God that I understand however, I'm not trying to control anything and I'm willing to accept whatever happens. And as a direct result of that all things are more manageable, both good and bad. When I'm not trying to exert my will over my life, I'm also able to focus on the blessings in my life instead of the things going wrong in it, not to mention that I have faith that things will get better -- something that I lacked entirely when I was drinking.

I had to have faith that the "friends" that I would lose from sobering up would be replaced, and they have. I had to have faith that enduring life's less glamorous situations would usher in a phase full of rebound, hope and happiness, and that also came true. I had to have faith that I would have fun when I sobered up, and indeed I do. And most importantly, I had to have faith that changing the way that I live on a daily basis would allow for a new and better life to begin, and it has.

I hope that sheds some light on this element of AA.

Yes, a very interesting and informative post - thanks. If I ever felt that I had a drink/drug problem, that would be the aspect of a 'formal' recovery programme that would be most difficult for me to engage with. Although having said that, my current religous beliefs mirror those of your pre-rehab self, so maybe if things got that bad I would become more open to these ideas. As things stand though, I find it difficult to get past the idea that recovery involves replacing one crutch (alcohol/drugs) with another (faith). If sobriety is the outcome, maybe that's not such a bad thing

Aren't there numerous atheist based recovery programs?

FWIW the alcoholic I know went to AA but isn't religious, it just helped him to be around other people taking that journey.

DrXparaMental wrote:
Aren't there numerous atheist based recovery programs?

I've no idea, are there? I've never been to rehab and neither has anyone close to me........