Ableton Forum

headquest wrote:

Tone Deft wrote:wait, coming from a guy that's still on Live 7.

Yep, hence "you", not "we".

I was in the Live 8 beta. Shocked when they released it in that state, and have been playing "wait and see" ever since. Still waiting, still watching... still seeing a train wreck. How long is it now - 9 months? Thank goodness they are now finally going to pull out the stops and get this working for all

It sure has been a fun ass train wreck for the most part.

Coupe70 wrote:how huge the step Gerhard announced really is and what we can expect from it.

what do you think you can expect from a CEO that practically kneels down to make such a public announcement?
doesn't that give you enough clue that the statement they obliged to is huge?
does it then really matter how many people, in percentages, are on the case fulltime?
how many people it takes for them to accomplish set goals is not relevant imho..

Coupe70 wrote:

Poster wrote: what does the whole team mean to you?
all of 2, all of 20, all of 50, all of 100..
it'll still be the whole team..

What I meant was if the dev team now joins the bug fix team,
will the bug fix team (and so the bug fix effort) grow
by 10%, 20%, 50%, 200%...?

To know that would give me an impression of how huge
the step Gerhard announced really is and what we can
expect from it.

Ableton is not a football club, there is no Team BugFix versus Team Developer. There are a number of people who actually write the code for the software. They could work on implementing new features, as defined by the specification team, or they could work on fixing bugs or general code clean up. Usually there is a process in place that ranks bugs by severity and effort and then the bugs get a priority and get assigned to a developper. In an ideal case to the developer who knows the responsible part of the code best. A crash is considered to have priority over everything, while minor issues like graphics problems get lowest priority. This is the normal routine, which is in place since Live 1. Obviously a few things went quite wrong with Live 8 and fixing them take more time then we initially assumed. Therefor we decided to throw all developer power on this and make sure we get Live back in the reliable state you were used to and resume the implementation of new ideas afterwards.

It is hard to answer your percentage question. Software development does not work like this. Two developers working on the same task could mean 150% more efficiency, it could mean 200% or even 400% depending on the problem. Or it could mean 70% if the issue is best solved by a single, focused person. We work on it. That's all I can say.

Cheers, Robert

Poster wrote: what do you think you can expect from a CEO that practically kneels down to make such a public announcement?
doesn't that give you enough clue that the statement they obliged to is huge?

Well at least there is a thread on this forum in which people
discuss if this announcement is anything more than a "political"
statement to calm people down, because one of the main messages
is only "we will deliver a free bugfix update"...
Don't want to discuss this here, just wanted to explain why I
was interested in what will pratically change at Ableton office
because of this announcement.

Not THAT important to me - so please go all back
to praising the new Ableton strategy !

edit: henke, thanks for your explanation !

Watching this:

knotkranky wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0n8N98mpes

+ Reading this [out of context right after the video]

henke wrote:Ableton is not a football club, there is no Team BugFix versus Team Developer

Laughing mad ass off.
Thanks for this great laugh -> the Whac-A-Mole killed me!
and sorry for this OT here

beatpoet wrote:Great news. The best new feature Live and m4l can get now is stability.

great news? politics... they knew that live 8 is buggy but had to fullfill the max fr christmas plan first..now new features can be set on hold... what probably just says that fixes for the half ready implementation of the grouptracks or groove quantize are seen as features that will be delivered in an pricy upgrade soon after the final cost free bug fix of live 8 somewher in spring time 2010...


question.. for what do i have payed the 129 euros for live 8? for new features that made my life easier?


or for the hazzle to reedo a good part of my clib libary, many crashes and lots of time to convince ableton about bugs they just dont liked to belive to be there?

If Mr Behrens is seriously sorry abut that he should do a bit more than just fixing the situation .. with a "free" bugfix update...


what about free operator or sampler for all?

earlier or later this has to become anyway part of the standard package of live...

compare with other daws... isnt a full featured sampler standard theese days? dont want t talk about convolution reverbs..

anyway...

i am happy to hear that they plan to fix live 8 first before getting live 9 on the market...

besides.. i just read the "quality" text again..
And i am really offended by the anouncement that live 8 wont see any new fetaures in cost free updates..

because that really says that features i thougt i would buy with live 8 only get delivered completly in live 9 and i ve to pay again for them...

wise move.. because so i am forced to buy live 9 to have the feature set i learned to use now komplete..
so undermining my plan to have live 8 as the last version of live on my computer..

THe feature i am talking about are the group tracks...
reat idea.. but the way they ar implemented cant becalled a finished implementation.. they are not useable in arrange..
and the are not useable live..at least not collapsed..the are a good subtrigger scene in scene routine... but with really bad optical feedback... and groutracks you cant use collapsed because you dont have an idea what is going on in there cant be called a finsihed implementation..
i thought this would be fixed in an update..

But as we have learned now.. ther wont be new features... and because the lacking of propper grouptrack functionality is not considred as bug or conceptional bug it wont be fixed in live 8..

Clear statement from the management.. perfect politics.. sounds like an appology to the users.. but just anounces that the only thing we can expect for live 8 are bug fixes.. and in live 9 we have propper grouptracks than and propper groove extraction and?

probably something nice but an old standard in teh daw world..let me guess,... a convolution reverb?



However.. I suggest to do a poll... if users consider the grouptracks as a bug...
and that this therfore needs to be fixed in live 8

that means arrange handling of grouptracks enabled... because without they are only a gadget for live shows you better dont use during production..

and a consistent graphic layout for them that matches the standards of ableton live..
means name able trigger fields and status bar in arrange.. especially when we finaly can use them there..

this is not a new feature.. its what is missing in the half ready implementation of grouptracks and thats the feature we bought with live 8

grouptracks are not bugged, though you can disagree with the conceptual implementation..

grouptracks will probably see some improvements, maybe with Live 9, who knows?
see it this way; the current conceptual state is what Ableton was able to offer.. (not saying it is bad at all)..
but they could've hold off the current grouptracks and only offer them in Live 9 with a bit more specs..
either way, a bit more matured grouptracks will only see the day of light beyond Live 8..
just be glad you have something to work with right now..

3phase wrote:And i am really offended by the anouncement that live 8 wont see any new fetaures in cost free updates..

so your point is that they should start adding in features?
hmm, yep, that should really help squash those bugs

djsynchro wrote:

Tone Deft wrote:I've been lucky but the laptop does struggle more under 8.1 than Live 7.

Try posting less you're wearing out the CPU.

Hahahahaha! djsynchro is funny these days.

And i am really offended by the anouncement that
live 8 wont see any new fetaures in cost free updates

What is announced is that there will be no new features until
we have a stable version, let's call it 8.2 - there is no
word about a possible free version 8.3 with new features.
I don't think we'll get that, but there is no word about
it in the announcement...

So all in all it will be like with all previous versions.
Only that Live 9 will be delayed a little...

8O wrote:

McQ714 wrote:....

Nah, I still don't get your logic... the original message said...

We have now decided to:

* suspend all development towards new features while the whole team joins forces to address the current issues. This effort is open ended and will result in a free Live 8 update;

...this means no new features. But at the same time you think NAMM will be full of "obviously the Serato collaboration. and whatever else they've got up their sleeves.. new "Share" implementation, features, etc.".

I.e. they fix all major issues in just over 2 weeks so that they can then develop the NAMM-announced features...?

don't forget the C74 collab was announced something like 2 years before it appeared

announcing things at NAMM doesn't mean they have to have it ready by then

how long did melodyne DNA take?

and we all know there will be a Serato logo there somewhere!

alex.the.forge wrote:don't forget the C74 collab was announced something like 2 years before it appeared

announcing things at NAMM doesn't mean they have to have it ready by then

Yes, you're right, I think the Ableton/Cycling 74 co-working was announced in 2007. Good point; I just expected new features to be tied in with a date and/or Live version. Ok...

Coupe70 wrote:So all in all it will be like with all previous versions.
Only that Live 9 will be delayed a little...

Maybe yes, maybe no. I am confident that Live 9's schedule will be delayed beyond what it was. However, that says little about whether the actual release of a working Live 9 will be delayed beyond what it would have been if Ableton had not taken time to consolidate and fix bugs in Live 8.

This it not just idle speculation. I've been involved in software development for a long time, and if there is one thing I've learned, it is that it is extremely difficult to add functionality to a buggy program without making it buggier. A development organization that puts new features ahead of quality will soon find that it has neither.