Very OT, 9/11

[shtreimel]

YOYO, who wants to spark a joint in this place? Chill these bitches out or something like that.... I think some of these people could do with an 'altered perception of reality'. Perhaps they'd gain some insight into other peoples perspectives and even gain some wisdom from it.

Yes forgie, I'm sure some pot will make everything okee-dokee. However, is it possible that the THC (delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol) will provide you with an unintended effect that blanket statements about nations are nothing more than, at best a 1st year polic sci paper, at worst, the angst of an adolescent boy who's mad at mommy and daddy projected onto their country of choice.

[forgie]

havent you left yet ?

Obviously not. I'm about to go myself though. Keep up the side of 'the lefties' in this here stupid-assed debate. But remember at the end of the day that you don't actually have to see these people in real life, and if they're as small-minded as it would seem, your attempts at convincing them of something they don't believe will be in vain.

Remember folks, attack the ideas, not the people. Simple rule of thumb for having a productive debate. It's a hard rule to follow, because sometimes, stupid people get you so frustrated that want to hit shit, but that's just how it is.

It's interesting to note that I can easily have a perfectly civil conversation with people of differing views, but they always end up attacking me personally. I think it's a sort of ego-defence thing, it's like when a persons ideas have been destroyed in front of them, they want to fight back. And if they can't fight back with ideas and reason, they'll fight back with insults.

[shtreimel]

Hows the 'google hunting' going for ya? Still making you feel like a big, grown up academic? Do you have any idea how much work is required to do research on this sort of shit? If you're at a uni, you can't just sit on google typing shit in....

Have you forgotten...my credentials have to do with serving in the IDF. And it so happens that I've two undergrads and a graduate degree. But that's neither here nor there. You sound silly, that's all.

[shtreimel]

It's interesting to note that I can easily have a perfectly civil conversation with people of differing views, but they always end up attacking me personally.

A shrink would say that if this is always occuring, you may want to ask yourself what you're doing to provoke this reaction. Or perhaps it's all that pot you've been smoking.

[henry ford]

havent you embarassed yourself enough, shitmill ?

[forgie]

It's interesting to note that I can easily have a perfectly civil conversation with people of differing views, but they always end up attacking me personally.

A shrink would say that if this is always occuring, you may want to ask yourself what you're doing to provoke this reaction. Or perhaps it's all that pot you've been smoking.

Ha! Sorry, I was thinking two things at once there. And I don't really poke much smot these days. I fully understand the effect it has on my mental health, so I try to abstain. I should have said:

It's interesting to note that I can easily have a perfectly civil conversation with people of differing views. With certain people, once you have shown them to be incorrect or mistaken in their beliefs, they start attacking you personally, rather then your ideas.

[henry ford]

Keep up the side of 'the lefties' in this here stupid-assed debate. But remember at the end of the day that you don't actually have to see these people in real life, and if they're as small-minded as it would seem, your attempts at convincing them of something they don't believe will be in vain.

I stated earlier I wasnt here to convert people, and I;m not. just the shitmill started off as if he could possibly bring something to the table.....but instead he became the shitmill.

i too, am out.

notice how that when i say I;m leaving, I actually leave.

bye shitmill.

[forgie]

bye shitmill, bye henry ford, bye everyone. may peace come to all and sundry (and not discriminate on the basis of their ethnicity or religious beliefs). may all fundamentalism be eradicated through non-violent means. may you all make wicked assed beats in ableton.

may free thought live on.

peace.

[shtreimel]

Nice. Recieved a few PM's with some nice words by folks who are watching this car wreck. Thanks for the support.

[djshiva]

BA in History and Asian Studies, then an MA. My Master's thesis was on the rise of anti-colonialism in Asia. I argued that the nationalist movements "overreacted", throwing the baby out with the bathwater when many nationalist movements dismantled the colonialist systems of governance (to their detriment).

Hmmm. I don't know about you, but if I was living in a 'colonised' country, I think I'd probably want to get rid of the fuckers that had been oppressing my people, and their institutions too.

I find it interesting to note that you chose to answer this point, and not my other questions regarding your hypocritical attitudes towards Israelis+Arabs.

a little read of frantz fanon illustrates this point fairly well. when in the process of ousting a colonial power, several dynamics come into play.

a) when the response to every action of self-determination is violence by the state...well the reaction to that is to respond with the same...violence. so far ghandi is one of the few who managed to take advantage of nonviolent civil disobedience, and even THAT was a strategy meant to take advantage of a mostly passive populace. it was a strategy more of convenience and less of moral revulsion to violence. i can dig up some of ghandi's own statements on the subject should anyone want them.

b) when you have been ruled by oppressive military violence, you tend to just wanna throw the whole lot out. but if you don't have a better idea of how to run a country, you tend to run into problems. is it a rather reactionary way to accomplish a goal? probably, but an understandable one.

and i had to add that when speaking of israel/palestine, people tend to forget that the palestinians were living there BEFORE the inception of the state of israel. israel's claim to the land is a biblical mandate that is difficult to justify by those who do not believe the bible gets to justify anything. if someone comes into my home and lays claim to it based on a religious mandate, and i do not live according to that religion...i am gonna have a damn hard time just handing my home over to them. in fact, i am gonna tell 'em to shove it, and if they persist, i will resist...yes...violently...if they try and physically toss me out of it. ya don't need to get real philosophical about this to recognize why.

and regarding israeli army violence... if it is nothing but rogue soldiers commiting the violence, then a) if that violence is acknowledged as having happened by israel's supporters and b) no disciplinary action is taken by the state against those "rogue" soldiers, then the assumption must be that c) israel as a STATE is giving its tacit approval and subsequent permission for those activites to continue.

[shtreimel]

may all fundamentalism be eradicated through non-violent means. may you all make wicked assed beats in ableton.

may free thought live on.

peace.

Oy Forgie. At times, violence is necessary. I know it's hard for artists to conceptualize why crayons and play-dough don't usher in an era of peace and tranquility, but real evil exists and, at times, violence is the only option at hand. I thank God that there have been, and continue to be, soldiers and politicians who are brave enough to use violence when justified, yet humble enough to know when not to. It's choices like these that provide us (artists) the freedom to compose and market our music.

[shtreimel]

and i had to add that when speaking of israel/palestine, people tend to forget that the palestinians were living there BEFORE the inception of the state of israel.

Uh, you're wrong. Jews have been living in Israel/Palestine for thousands of years. And don't get me started on the whole...what is, or isn't, a Palestinian debate? Personally, I believe they're entitled to a country. And I believe that it should reflect the reality of a people who've rejected said country time and time again (read UN resolutions and documentation from '48 on).

israel's claim to the land is a biblical mandate that is difficult to justify by those who do not believe the bible gets to justify anything.

Forget about God. Most biblical/historical scholars agree that a tribe of Hebrews lived in this area over 4000 years ago. If nothing else, history and archeology support the Jewish concept of Zionism i.e. a return to a homeland. And of course, the fact that Jews have been living in Jerusalem for 1000's of years adds weight to that non-God argument.

if someone comes into my home and lays claim to it based on a religious mandate,.

Zionists were very, very secular people. DJSHIVA, we've been though this over and over again. Where are you getting your source material?

Oh man, this is painful.

[djshiva]

I thank God that there have been, and continue to be, soldiers and politicians who are brave enough to use violence when justified, yet humble enough to know when not to. It's choices like these that provide us (artists) the freedom to compose and market our music.

that boldfaced word does more to illustrate the impetus for western foreign policy than all these pages of arguments and debates have...

[shtreimel]

if it is nothing but rogue soldiers commiting the violence, then a) if that violence is acknowledged as having happened by israel's supporters and b) no disciplinary action is taken by the state against those "rogue" soldiers, then the assumption must be that c) israel as a STATE is giving its tacit approval and subsequent permission for those activites to continue.

As someone who's served in the IDF, I can tell you that the rule of engagement, and subsequent punishment for disobeying these rules, put our lives in danger. A joke shared amongst soldiers is that you need to re-read your army manual each time you consider firing your weapon. So much so, you weapon is superfluous.

[shtreimel]

I thank God that there have been, and continue to be, soldiers and politicians who are brave enough to use violence when justified, yet humble enough to know when not to. It's choices like these that provide us (artists) the freedom to compose and market our music.

that boldfaced word does more to illustrate the impetus for western foreign policy than all these pages of arguments and debates have...

So says you. Hey Shiva, perhaps your music isn't marketable. I ain't too sure. One thing I know is...show me an artist who doesn't want their music heard, and/or have an opportunity to make money making music (this takes marketing my dear), I'll show you an artist whose music isn't able to generate the attention or funds. C'est la vie.

Why is it that whacky lefties always parrot the same lines...

Country/Nation = greedy, suspicious, evil
War = genocide
Making money = bad

Oh and Ms. Shiva...it's marketing that has allowed Live to become the incredible software it has become. Thankfully the likes of yourself sit behind turntables and not in the Live boardroom.