OT Bush calls Lebanon A new front for global war on terror

[M. Bréqs]

It means maybe you understand that the real reason people out there, in the third world, are so pissed off is not because they "hate freedom" (like your presdient is so quick to tell you) but maybe because they blame their lack of freedom on external sources (Jews and America) rather than their own leadership and their religion's inheirently midevil set of values?

Now that's proably the smartest thing you've said so far. But how do we address this? A quick round of bombing should make them change their minds.

...Unforutnately, I don't think we can address this. The only other alternative, if their society cannot change (and I don't consider it likely) is to deter them from threatening us.

Ultimately, I would love peace and freedom in the world of Islam... But I think it's a pipe dream.

***edited for the sake of tranquility on this thread***

[elemental]

a question for those who oppose how israel is handling the current situation, not a rhetorical question, actually interested:

how should nations handle asymetrical warfare? if a nation is attacked by an organization (regardless of whether labelled freedom fighters, insurgents, terroriests) that is embedded in a civilian population (no uniforms, etc.) how should the nation respond?

no response? because of the risk of harming civilians? do those civilians have any responsibility for the organization they harbor or permit to remain among them?

only measured response? intended to do as little harm to the civilian population as possible?

or response designed to have most impact on the organization, while trying to limit harm to civilians?

or full out genghiskhan/nazi hang the civilians so that they turn on the organization?

does it really matter if you can pin down who started it? that is, if israel could identify it's own actions across the decades as the root cause of the current strife, should it just sit back and take the rockets? does proportionality matter? can there be any form of rules of engagement in asymetrical warfare, where one side by definition would likely lose if they played by the rules?

For a start (assuming you are talking about the palestinian situation more than the lebanon situation):
Treat them like fellow human beings. Dont trample on them and treat them like animals. Then maybe they might earn a little more respect.

[dj superflat]

the question applies equally to the lebanon situation -- in fact, that's what i'm really asking about.

[D K]

What I am saying is that Hizbolla are a militant force that has infiltrated and now partly controls Lebanon.

No, Hizbollah, with the exception of the rocket attacks into Israel, is a legitimate resistance group under international law.

And it's easy to post pictures of children posing as martyrs, but if you want to be fair you would post the pictures of young Israeli children decorating artillery shells and missiles before they are fired into populated civilian areas.

And maybe you should put things into perspective. Of-course it is a terrible tragedy when a young person blows him or herself up in a crowded cafe killing a bunch of civilians but is it not tragic when an American made Israeli helicopter or fighter jet levels an apartment block or refugee camp and kills a bunch of innocent people? PLO, Hamas, Hizbollah, PFLP, whatever, these people do not have the luxury of Abrams tanks, Apache Helicopter gun-ships, remote controlled armed drone planes, 105 mm howitzers, F-16 fighter planes, cluster bombs, or white phosphorus.

it does not mean that I think it is "justified" to blow up a crowded passenger bus, it is no more justified then it is to bomb a convoy of refugees after you have granted them passage. it means I have taken the time to consider the situation from both angles.

Why is it so hard to believe that Israel is maybe not fighting for its life, but is an aggressive criminal nation? You know, recognizing that or believing that does not automatically mean that you think hizbollah or whatever other resistance group are saints and it does not mean you are calling for the destruction of israel. it really doesn't, trust me. I know.

It means maybe you understand that the real reason people out there, in the third world, are so pissed off is not because they "hate freedom" (like my President is so quick to tell you) but maybe because they just want a little bit of freedom of their own. it means maybe you undertand the hypocritical, racist policies that are affecting people in the third world.

it means maybe you understand that there is a difference between the people and the policies, between the culture and the power center.

Trust me, it's just as ok to question the policies of the United States and Israel as it is to question the policies of iran or Syria. it doesn't mean you support "terrorism" or hate "the jews" it means you don't see the world in this bullshit black and white, epic struggle of good vs. evil that so many others do. it means you've taken the time to research not only the atrocities committed by "the enemy" that is printed in every American paper, but that you've also taken the time to investigate the atrocities committed by the "good guys" as well.

If more people would take the time to do that, rather than regurgitating what is fed to them by, forgive my rhetoric, the state/corporate sponsored propaganda machine( because that is exactly what it is, free press my ass), then maybe more people would begin to question these policies and then maybe we would see a real change.

Then maybe what the elite fears more than anything else would happen, "the great beast" (the people) would wake up from their sofas, couches, and easy chairs and not just call for, but demand a change.

fuckin' spot on!!!!!

[SubQ]

i can't help to spread this link everywhere:
http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid= ... ose+change

i think that says all.

thanks dj vakis!

[/u]

[Benshik]

What I am saying is that Hizbolla are a militant force that has infiltrated and now partly controls Lebanon.

No, Hizbollah, with the exception of the rocket attacks into Israel, is a legitimate resistance group under international law.

And it's easy to post pictures of children posing as martyrs, but if you want to be fair you would post the pictures of young Israeli children decorating artillery shells and missiles before they are fired into populated civilian areas.

And maybe you should put things into perspective. Of-course it is a terrible tragedy when a young person blows him or herself up in a crowded cafe killing a bunch of civilians but is it not tragic when an American made Israeli helicopter or fighter jet levels an apartment block or refugee camp and kills a bunch of innocent people? PLO, Hamas, Hizbollah, PFLP, whatever, these people do not have the luxury of Abrams tanks, Apache Helicopter gun-ships, remote controlled armed drone planes, 105 mm howitzers, F-16 fighter planes, cluster bombs, or white phosphorus.

it does not mean that I think it is "justified" to blow up a crowded passenger bus, it is no more justified then it is to bomb a convoy of refugees after you have granted them passage. it means I have taken the time to consider the situation from both angles.

Why is it so hard to believe that Israel is maybe not fighting for its life, but is an aggressive criminal nation? You know, recognizing that or believing that does not automatically mean that you think hizbollah or whatever other resistance group are saints and it does not mean you are calling for the destruction of israel. it really doesn't, trust me. I know.

It means maybe you understand that the real reason people out there, in the third world, are so pissed off is not because they "hate freedom" (like my President is so quick to tell you) but maybe because they just want a little bit of freedom of their own. it means maybe you undertand the hypocritical, racist policies that are affecting people in the third world.

it means maybe you understand that there is a difference between the people and the policies, between the culture and the power center.

Trust me, it's just as ok to question the policies of the United States and Israel as it is to question the policies of iran or Syria. it doesn't mean you support "terrorism" or hate "the jews" it means you don't see the world in this bullshit black and white, epic struggle of good vs. evil that so many others do. it means you've taken the time to research not only the atrocities committed by "the enemy" that is printed in every American paper, but that you've also taken the time to investigate the atrocities committed by the "good guys" as well.

If more people would take the time to do that, rather than regurgitating what is fed to them by, forgive my rhetoric, the state/corporate sponsored propaganda machine( because that is exactly what it is, free press my ass), then maybe more people would begin to question these policies and then maybe we would see a real change.

Then maybe what the elite fears more than anything else would happen, "the great beast" (the people) would wake up from their sofas, couches, and easy chairs and not just call for, but demand a change.

fuckin' spot on!!!!!

sorry but fuckin lightyears away from being spot on!!!!!!!

[Degrazi-One]

the man will have his way... the real scary thing is it all seems so hopeless. I mean I will be voting in the coming election but really... lets think about it, is the next guy gonna be all that different? I really fear for my children.

I'm sure there are a lot of smart people out there working hard on a solution to the problems in this world, and I know that Bush doesn't create all of them... But man its hard not to get depressed!

[MathematiK I]

When a cop searched me for drugs it Was because I had Dreads and wore colourful clothes...
Isn't that profiling ?... LIFE SUCKS! live with it!

Islamist males , maybe if the rational stream of islam would stop the radical stream of islam or at least speak up against it like they do in other religions...
nobody wants to point fingers but people want to be safe!!!!
and muslims are blowing up planes buildings trains targeting civilians in Spain, UK, France, Israel , Malysia , India and even in their own countries.

I am not anti Islam - it is a beautiful religion , but the radical people give Islam bad name....
a lot of hypocricy...

and smutek, As for Israel I'm pretty sure that they just want to live in peace in the ME without being harrassed constantly, of course some terrible shit will happen when you go to war !!!
Hizbollah is a TERROR group funded by Iran and NOT a resistance, of course they have schools in lebanon and give free 'education' to the needy....
But Hizbolla's actions are the direct cause for the redestruction of Lebanon...
hizbollah just woke a sleeping tiger, did they realy expect not to get mauled ...
I realy hope that your gov. would do the same for you if some organization was shooting rockets on your family's homes..

NO MORE TEARS NO MORE BLOODSHED.
I'm outa this thread y'all.
peace.

Check out http://www.hotair.com
P.S. people don't judge - walk a mile in someones shoes before criticize them.

[robtronik]

LOL at the thought that that Hez is a legitimate resistance group.

I guess if you are part of Hez, you'd think so.

rob.

[djadonis206]

No one should be profiled. There's so many militant groups out there of all races and colors.



Justin Franchi Solondz is wanted on multiple charges related to his alleged role in a domestic terrorism cell. On April 6, 2006, and May 17, 2006, federal grand juries in Sacramento, California, and Seattle, Washington (respectively) indicted Solondz on a variety of arson charges related to fires which were set in these two states.

CONTACT: If you have any information concerning this case, please contact your local FBI office.

Doesn't look very muslim



On January 19, 2006, a federal grand jury in Eugene, Oregon, indicted Josephine Sunshine Overaker on multiple charges related to her alleged role in a domestic terrorism cell. Overaker was charged with two conspiracy violations related to seventeen incidents, five counts of arson, one count of attempted arson, and one count of destruction of an energy facility. These crimes occurred in Oregon, Washington, California, Colorado, and Wyoming, and date back to 1996. Many of the crimes she is accused of participating in were claimed to be committed by the Earth Liberation Front (ELF) or the Animal Liberation Front (ALF).

Overaker is fluent in Spanish. She is known to use illegal narcotics. Overaker may have a light facial moustache. She was a vegan and may still be. Overaker is an American citizen.


Not that Muslim looking

[djadonis206]

But then again 26 of the 28 Most Wanted Terrorist are of muslim decent

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/fugitives.htm

[noisetonepause]

maybe if the rational stream of islam would stop the radical stream of islam or at least speak up against it like they do in other religions...

They do.

Just one example - written briefly after the Sept. 11 2001 attacks:

The strangeness as well as the extremity of the New York attacks has been reflected in the strenuous denunciations we have heard from Muslim leaders around the world. For them, this has been a rare moment of unity. Mohammed Tantawi, rector of Cairo's Al-Azhar University, the highest institution of learning in the Sunni world, has bitterly condemned the outrages. In Shi'ite Iran, Ayatollah Kashani called the attacks "catastrophic", and demanded a global mobilisation against the culprits. The Organisation of the Islamic Conference, normally well known for its indecision, unanimously condemned "these savage and criminal acts".

(http://www.islamfortoday.com/murad04.htm)

I think you'll find the problem is that the media in Western Christendom tends to not care about what Muslims actually say. They picked their angle long ago, and anything that does not conform with that angle is usually conveniently sidelined.

-Paws

[noisetonepause]

*edited for courtesy*

... M. Breqs, I disagree with you but I cannot bothered discussing with you seem unable to type a sentence that I don't find reprehensible.

I'm out.

[D K]

No, Hizbollah, with the exception of the rocket attacks into Israel, is a legitimate resistance group under international law.

And it's easy to post pictures of children posing as martyrs, but if you want to be fair you would post the pictures of young Israeli children decorating artillery shells and missiles before they are fired into populated civilian areas.

And maybe you should put things into perspective. Of-course it is a terrible tragedy when a young person blows him or herself up in a crowded cafe killing a bunch of civilians but is it not tragic when an American made Israeli helicopter or fighter jet levels an apartment block or refugee camp and kills a bunch of innocent people? PLO, Hamas, Hizbollah, PFLP, whatever, these people do not have the luxury of Abrams tanks, Apache Helicopter gun-ships, remote controlled armed drone planes, 105 mm howitzers, F-16 fighter planes, cluster bombs, or white phosphorus.

it does not mean that I think it is "justified" to blow up a crowded passenger bus, it is no more justified then it is to bomb a convoy of refugees after you have granted them passage. it means I have taken the time to consider the situation from both angles.

Why is it so hard to believe that Israel is maybe not fighting for its life, but is an aggressive criminal nation? You know, recognizing that or believing that does not automatically mean that you think hizbollah or whatever other resistance group are saints and it does not mean you are calling for the destruction of israel. it really doesn't, trust me. I know.

It means maybe you understand that the real reason people out there, in the third world, are so pissed off is not because they "hate freedom" (like my President is so quick to tell you) but maybe because they just want a little bit of freedom of their own. it means maybe you undertand the hypocritical, racist policies that are affecting people in the third world.

it means maybe you understand that there is a difference between the people and the policies, between the culture and the power center.

Trust me, it's just as ok to question the policies of the United States and Israel as it is to question the policies of iran or Syria. it doesn't mean you support "terrorism" or hate "the jews" it means you don't see the world in this bullshit black and white, epic struggle of good vs. evil that so many others do. it means you've taken the time to research not only the atrocities committed by "the enemy" that is printed in every American paper, but that you've also taken the time to investigate the atrocities committed by the "good guys" as well.

If more people would take the time to do that, rather than regurgitating what is fed to them by, forgive my rhetoric, the state/corporate sponsored propaganda machine( because that is exactly what it is, free press my ass), then maybe more people would begin to question these policies and then maybe we would see a real change.

Then maybe what the elite fears more than anything else would happen, "the great beast" (the people) would wake up from their sofas, couches, and easy chairs and not just call for, but demand a change.

fuckin' spot on!!!!!

sorry but fuckin lightyears away from being spot on!!!!!!!

sorry pal, spot on!

[subterFUSE]

No one should be profiled. There's so many militant groups out there of all races and colors.

Adonis....


Terrorist Profiling is not purely racial in nature. It also takes into account things like where you have been, or who you are calling. For example, John Walker Lindh is an American who was captured fighting for the Taliban in Afghanistan. Let's consider if he had not been caught by the US military..... and that he was trying to return to the United States. With profiling, the simple fact that he had been in Afghanistan would be just cause to take extra precautions before allowing him to re-enter the United States.


Profiling is not a 100% solution, and no one claims that it is. But it's better than the alternative of simply ignoring the stats. We use statistics in many different fields. They help us understand trends, and to hedge risk. Well, the stats cannot be denied... the vast majority of those responsible for terrorist attacks have been Islamist males between ages 17 and 40.

I think that's where our efforts should be focused. Not on wasting time searching my 93 year old grandmother just so that Muslim people don't feel offended.