Ableton Forum

andydes wrote:

M. Bréqs wrote:
It means maybe you understand that the real reason people out there, in the third world, are so pissed off is not because they "hate freedom" (like your presdient is so quick to tell you) but maybe because they blame their lack of freedom on external sources (Jews and America) rather than their own leadership and their religion's inheirently midevil set of values?

Now that's proably the smartest thing you've said so far. But how do we address this? A quick round of bombing should make them change their minds.

dj superflat wrote:a question for those who oppose how israel is handling the current situation, not a rhetorical question, actually interested:

how should nations handle asymetrical warfare? if a nation is attacked by an organization (regardless of whether labelled freedom fighters, insurgents, terroriests) that is embedded in a civilian population (no uniforms, etc.) how should the nation respond?

no response? because of the risk of harming civilians? do those civilians have any responsibility for the organization they harbor or permit to remain among them?

only measured response? intended to do as little harm to the civilian population as possible?

or response designed to have most impact on the organization, while trying to limit harm to civilians?

or full out genghiskhan/nazi hang the civilians so that they turn on the organization?

does it really matter if you can pin down who started it? that is, if israel could identify it's own actions across the decades as the root cause of the current strife, should it just sit back and take the rockets? does proportionality matter? can there be any form of rules of engagement in asymetrical warfare, where one side by definition would likely lose if they played by the rules?

smutek wrote:

M. Bréqs wrote:What I am saying is that Hizbolla are a militant force that has infiltrated and now partly controls Lebanon.

No, Hizbollah, with the exception of the rocket attacks into Israel, is a legitimate resistance group under international law.

And it's easy to post pictures of children posing as martyrs, but if you want to be fair you would post the pictures of young Israeli children decorating artillery shells and missiles before they are fired into populated civilian areas.

And maybe you should put things into perspective. Of-course it is a terrible tragedy when a young person blows him or herself up in a crowded cafe killing a bunch of civilians but is it not tragic when an American made Israeli helicopter or fighter jet levels an apartment block or refugee camp and kills a bunch of innocent people? PLO, Hamas, Hizbollah, PFLP, whatever, these people do not have the luxury of Abrams tanks, Apache Helicopter gun-ships, remote controlled armed drone planes, 105 mm howitzers, F-16 fighter planes, cluster bombs, or white phosphorus.

it does not mean that I think it is "justified" to blow up a crowded passenger bus, it is no more justified then it is to bomb a convoy of refugees after you have granted them passage. it means I have taken the time to consider the situation from both angles.

Why is it so hard to believe that Israel is maybe not fighting for its life, but is an aggressive criminal nation? You know, recognizing that or believing that does not automatically mean that you think hizbollah or whatever other resistance group are saints and it does not mean you are calling for the destruction of israel. it really doesn't, trust me. I know.

It means maybe you understand that the real reason people out there, in the third world, are so pissed off is not because they "hate freedom" (like my President is so quick to tell you) but maybe because they just want a little bit of freedom of their own. it means maybe you undertand the hypocritical, racist policies that are affecting people in the third world.

it means maybe you understand that there is a difference between the people and the policies, between the culture and the power center.

Trust me, it's just as ok to question the policies of the United States and Israel as it is to question the policies of iran or Syria. it doesn't mean you support "terrorism" or hate "the jews" it means you don't see the world in this bullshit black and white, epic struggle of good vs. evil that so many others do. it means you've taken the time to research not only the atrocities committed by "the enemy" that is printed in every American paper, but that you've also taken the time to investigate the atrocities committed by the "good guys" as well.

If more people would take the time to do that, rather than regurgitating what is fed to them by, forgive my rhetoric, the state/corporate sponsored propaganda machine( because that is exactly what it is, free press my ass), then maybe more people would begin to question these policies and then maybe we would see a real change.

Then maybe what the elite fears more than anything else would happen, "the great beast" (the people) would wake up from their sofas, couches, and easy chairs and not just call for, but demand a change.

D K wrote:

smutek wrote:

M. Bréqs wrote:What I am saying is that Hizbolla are a militant force that has infiltrated and now partly controls Lebanon.

No, Hizbollah, with the exception of the rocket attacks into Israel, is a legitimate resistance group under international law.

And it's easy to post pictures of children posing as martyrs, but if you want to be fair you would post the pictures of young Israeli children decorating artillery shells and missiles before they are fired into populated civilian areas.

And maybe you should put things into perspective. Of-course it is a terrible tragedy when a young person blows him or herself up in a crowded cafe killing a bunch of civilians but is it not tragic when an American made Israeli helicopter or fighter jet levels an apartment block or refugee camp and kills a bunch of innocent people? PLO, Hamas, Hizbollah, PFLP, whatever, these people do not have the luxury of Abrams tanks, Apache Helicopter gun-ships, remote controlled armed drone planes, 105 mm howitzers, F-16 fighter planes, cluster bombs, or white phosphorus.

it does not mean that I think it is "justified" to blow up a crowded passenger bus, it is no more justified then it is to bomb a convoy of refugees after you have granted them passage. it means I have taken the time to consider the situation from both angles.

Why is it so hard to believe that Israel is maybe not fighting for its life, but is an aggressive criminal nation? You know, recognizing that or believing that does not automatically mean that you think hizbollah or whatever other resistance group are saints and it does not mean you are calling for the destruction of israel. it really doesn't, trust me. I know.

It means maybe you understand that the real reason people out there, in the third world, are so pissed off is not because they "hate freedom" (like my President is so quick to tell you) but maybe because they just want a little bit of freedom of their own. it means maybe you undertand the hypocritical, racist policies that are affecting people in the third world.

it means maybe you understand that there is a difference between the people and the policies, between the culture and the power center.

Trust me, it's just as ok to question the policies of the United States and Israel as it is to question the policies of iran or Syria. it doesn't mean you support "terrorism" or hate "the jews" it means you don't see the world in this bullshit black and white, epic struggle of good vs. evil that so many others do. it means you've taken the time to research not only the atrocities committed by "the enemy" that is printed in every American paper, but that you've also taken the time to investigate the atrocities committed by the "good guys" as well.

If more people would take the time to do that, rather than regurgitating what is fed to them by, forgive my rhetoric, the state/corporate sponsored propaganda machine( because that is exactly what it is, free press my ass), then maybe more people would begin to question these policies and then maybe we would see a real change.

Then maybe what the elite fears more than anything else would happen, "the great beast" (the people) would wake up from their sofas, couches, and easy chairs and not just call for, but demand a change.

fuckin' spot on!!!!!

MathematiK I wrote:maybe if the rational stream of islam would stop the radical stream of islam or at least speak up against it like they do in other religions...

Abdal-Hakim Murad wrote:The strangeness as well as the extremity of the New York attacks has been reflected in the strenuous denunciations we have heard from Muslim leaders around the world. For them, this has been a rare moment of unity. Mohammed Tantawi, rector of Cairo's Al-Azhar University, the highest institution of learning in the Sunni world, has bitterly condemned the outrages. In Shi'ite Iran, Ayatollah Kashani called the attacks "catastrophic", and demanded a global mobilisation against the culprits. The Organisation of the Islamic Conference, normally well known for its indecision, unanimously condemned "these savage and criminal acts".

Benshik wrote:

D K wrote:

smutek wrote: No, Hizbollah, with the exception of the rocket attacks into Israel, is a legitimate resistance group under international law.

And it's easy to post pictures of children posing as martyrs, but if you want to be fair you would post the pictures of young Israeli children decorating artillery shells and missiles before they are fired into populated civilian areas.

And maybe you should put things into perspective. Of-course it is a terrible tragedy when a young person blows him or herself up in a crowded cafe killing a bunch of civilians but is it not tragic when an American made Israeli helicopter or fighter jet levels an apartment block or refugee camp and kills a bunch of innocent people? PLO, Hamas, Hizbollah, PFLP, whatever, these people do not have the luxury of Abrams tanks, Apache Helicopter gun-ships, remote controlled armed drone planes, 105 mm howitzers, F-16 fighter planes, cluster bombs, or white phosphorus.

it does not mean that I think it is "justified" to blow up a crowded passenger bus, it is no more justified then it is to bomb a convoy of refugees after you have granted them passage. it means I have taken the time to consider the situation from both angles.

Why is it so hard to believe that Israel is maybe not fighting for its life, but is an aggressive criminal nation? You know, recognizing that or believing that does not automatically mean that you think hizbollah or whatever other resistance group are saints and it does not mean you are calling for the destruction of israel. it really doesn't, trust me. I know.

It means maybe you understand that the real reason people out there, in the third world, are so pissed off is not because they "hate freedom" (like my President is so quick to tell you) but maybe because they just want a little bit of freedom of their own. it means maybe you undertand the hypocritical, racist policies that are affecting people in the third world.

it means maybe you understand that there is a difference between the people and the policies, between the culture and the power center.

Trust me, it's just as ok to question the policies of the United States and Israel as it is to question the policies of iran or Syria. it doesn't mean you support "terrorism" or hate "the jews" it means you don't see the world in this bullshit black and white, epic struggle of good vs. evil that so many others do. it means you've taken the time to research not only the atrocities committed by "the enemy" that is printed in every American paper, but that you've also taken the time to investigate the atrocities committed by the "good guys" as well.

If more people would take the time to do that, rather than regurgitating what is fed to them by, forgive my rhetoric, the state/corporate sponsored propaganda machine( because that is exactly what it is, free press my ass), then maybe more people would begin to question these policies and then maybe we would see a real change.

Then maybe what the elite fears more than anything else would happen, "the great beast" (the people) would wake up from their sofas, couches, and easy chairs and not just call for, but demand a change.

fuckin' spot on!!!!!

sorry but fuckin lightyears away from being spot on!!!!!!!

No one should be profiled. There's so many militant groups out there of all races and colors.