[ot] - kim jong ill, nuclear at last!

[simpleton]

Merely the prospect of discussion with people like you results in that feeling you experience when you try and comphrehend the Universe.

golly gee don't flatter me so much
I realize that my revelations are profound but...
putting my theory of Pre-emptive Proliferation on the same level as Einstein! What a Nobel

[12micsn1]

Seriously folks, this is very bad news for the world as a whole. When stuff goes down it affects the whole global community now.

Also - the speciulation that Israel is about to invade Iran is v.serious.

Trouble ahead one way or the other?

Fuck Globalization!!!!!!

This is the problem. Eventually the world is going to wake up to another mushroom cloud. These fucking Communist have one goal but to blackmail the world to meet there needs.

[subterFUSE]

The UN isn't starving the North Korean people, it's Kim Jong Il..... unless you are talking about inaction of the UN. The UN isn't doing shit.... because that's all they can do..... SHIT. They are a failed institution. The UN should not exist. It should be disbanded. It's completely worthless. .

no I wasnt talking about the past

china is worried about future sanctions having the potential to create Millions of refugees

If you read my post, I said about Kim's dad being shit scared of American nukes since the Korean war and that passed on to him

so yes I know it goes back a long way

the point I was making is that Bush is not likely to solve it because he is EXACTLY the type to fulfil Kim's worst fears - like the McCarthyists of our era

the Bush's of this world's idealogies are not peacful ones - the outcome for people like him is always war

N.Korea cant actually mount their nukes in missiles - they are not for offence - they are to stop the US invading him

and to be honest if I was him I'd probably feel the same way

I think you are so wrong. I will tell you with absolute 110% certainty that George W. Bush does not WANT war with North Korea. What he wants is for North Korea to obey the international will and various treaties they have signed over the years. It's not just the USA saying not to develop nukes. It's the entire world. In this respect, Bush is no different than any other leader in this world. You just think he's different because you hate him and want to blame every problem in this world on him. Hating Bush is basically the latest chic fashion craze.

Where Bush differs from other leaders is that he will actually hold others to account. When UN Resolutions say to disarm and allow inspectors in to confirm, or else face serious consequences..... well.... he will impose serious consequences when the rest of the world won't do anything. I'll take that over impotence and inaction any day of the week.



There is no military option here.... just as I have said before. North Korea can't do anything to the USA directly. But that's not what worries us. We are worried about South Korea.... our ally. Yes... the USA does care about that, contrary to popular belief. If we do anything that looks like military posturing, they might lob a nuke at Seoul. They can do this..... without a missile. It can be done with artillary.

And we can't talk with them. They have proven over and over that they can't be trusted. Jimmy Carter gets a fucking Nobel Prize for brokering agreements with the North Koreans. All they do is take the rewards, and violate every agreement.

[forge]

You just think he's different because you hate him and want to blame every problem in this world on him because that's so much easier.... and because you will fit in with the crowd. Hating Bush is basically the latest chic fashion craze.
.

well that's utterly absurd I dont "hate" bush out of some kind of trend - you're actually part of a minority of the worlds population who doesnt think having a gung ho cowboy like him in the white house is pretty terrifying.

whether you like to admit it or not he is an Oil tycoon and by some AMAZING coincidence just happens to invade countries with huge oil supplies!

what's more incredible is supporters like you dont see that as a tad strange if not acknowedging it is outright corrupt

how do you think it looks to the rest of the world? But I guess since you live so close to him you must know the "real honest joe inside" and know for a fact he really only wants whats best for everybody.

you missed my point though really - I dont actually think he will invade N. Korea at all - but I could believe if they didnt have nukes he might have thought about it

my point was more that cowboys like him are creating people like Kim by making them nervous, and saying things like "axis of evil" about N.korea only makes that worse - it's the culture of fear and perceptioon of domination by the corporate west in the 3rd world that needs addressing - a bit of trust is needed, and people like Bush dont create it

meanwhile Dubbaya is looking for boogie men in the closet and destroying countries to find them - not easing these weaker countries fears exactly

true I'm mixing issues here, this discussion is about N. Korea - but if you really see Bush as a dove who wants a peaceful world then I think far from this "trendy niche" you talk about 98% of the worlds population would probably disagree with you - that's if the redneck states of the US is 2% of the worlds population, probably not actually - probably more like 99.8% of the world disagree with you

most people were worried about Bush when he first stole the first election, that's no bandwagon jump

[glu]

Hating Bush is basically the latest chic fashion craze.

I have been stuck in Texas with the asshole since he was governer.

Hatred is too powerful of a word to use, it can have certain implications.

and



calling it "the latest chic fashion" is an insult to your country

[forge]

Hating Bush is basically the latest chic fashion craze.

I have been stuck in Texas with the asshole since he was governer.

Hatred is too powerful of a word to use, it can have certain implications.

and



calling it "the latest chic fashion" is an insult to your country

LISTEN TO THE ASS SNIFFING MONKEY!

[subterFUSE]

I think my fashion comment is pretty much on point for most people who view Bush so negatively. I think, for many people in the world, that's it's more a knee-jerk reaction than any fair and rationally formulated analysis. Just seeing stuff like "gung-ho cowboy" and other cliched labels makes me feel that even more.

I don't think he's a saint. But I don't think he is the source of the world's problems. He has certainly made mistakes.... but I believe on balance he has done a lot of good while in office. I admire him.

I believe one source of many of today's problems has been the United Nations' failures. This body has proven to be a useless and impotent entity. What is the point of drafting resolutions which call for consequences if you never had any intention of imposing said consequences? There isn't much point. In fact, when this occurs you only weaken the position of the international community in diplomatic matters. Leaders like Kim Jong Il see this weakness, and exploit it. He signs agreements and reaps the rewards. Then he turns around and continues violating. Kim Jong Il was around and causing trouble long before George Bush was in office. So was Saddam, for that matter. And the United Nations stood around and did nothing.

I do not think Bush is just this "cowboy" who rides around on the back of a horse shouting "Yeeeehaw" at the top of his lungs. I don't think he's looking to invade everyone. He isn't looking to invade North Korea.... with or without nukes. He wants diplomacy to work. And we're trying to handle it this way. But if the UN passes resolutions which call for action in the face of non-compliance, then Bush will be among those who will act in that situation. I respect that. I am glad that at least some leaders in this world will act.


If North Korea didn't have nukes, and were obeying the various international treaties they had signed.... they would be in a far better situation. Maybe they would be accepted into the international community? Maybe their economy could improve? Maybe the people might be eating? Maybe Kim Jong Il would have more respect?

[muscleandhate]

I believe one source of many of today's problems has been the United Nations' failures. This body has proven to be a useless and impotent entity. What is the point of drafting resolutions which call for consequences if you never had any intention of imposing said consequences?

The US and the Bush Administration know all about exploiting the U.N. The United States is one of the core members of the United Nations. It certainly did not lead by example when it pre-emptively invaded Iraq, almost unilaterially and most certainly in stark contrast to the opinion of the international community. Anyway, hypocrisy aside, I agree with you that blaming the worlds problems squarely on a rather influential US President is a weak contention.

However, I'd say blaming it on the U.N is no different and bears no substantive argument. Think about it, a global problem ipso facto requires a global solution. The U.N, whilst it's failures are well documented, provides a capacity for multilaterial action amongst nations and acts as a forum for World affiars. This mechanism is vital, it should certainly not be removed as you contend, rather it desperately needs to be improved and build upon. The challenges facing humanity this century are absolutely global in nature. The impending energy crisis, peak oil, world stability and global warming all need global cooperation and I see the U.N as the facility for this. It took a long time to approch anything near to the U.N, and you want to rip it down now? If you did that, we'd soon approach an international order of states recoiling back into isolation and launching pre-emptive strikes against other nation-states. Actually, the last part of that sounds quite familar...

[Kodama]

subterFUSE, He should have been impeached on one of his first days in office when he passed laws paying credit card companies back for contributions, pay to play for the office of the presidency is way more dangerous than what your heroes wasted our time and money on to try to impeach Clinton for.

If you're really an ACTUAL conservative, you would not be a fan of Bush's people at all anyways...

[forge]

just to add - john hopkins university has now estimated over 600 thousand Iraqi civilians dead since the start of the war

since this invasion the whole nation of Iraq is in total misery

the actual Iraq health ministry puts the figure at 128 000

GWB puts the figure at 30 000

Him and his are obscene

hope it was worth it

[forge]

I think my fashion comment is pretty much on point for most people who view Bush so negatively.

99.8% of the world disagrees

[M. Bréqs]

you missed my point though really - I dont actually think he will invade N. Korea at all - but I could believe if they didnt have nukes he might have thought about it

No way José. If Ill Kim didn't have nukes (which is debatable) the world could still not invade.

North Korea has the fifth largest army on the planet, and the terrain is favourable to the defender. This isn't some Republican Guard exposed in the Iraqi desert, it's not some irregular bunch of Taliban wieners... The North Korean army is huge and scary, even without nukes.

But the main reasons that we (the West) can't invade North Korea are twofold:

1. Literally, MILLIONS of people in Seoul (pop 20 million) would die. North Korea has enough conventional artillery to drop three hundred thousand shells per hour, and sustain that rate of fire for a LONG time. To give you some perspective, North Korea could concentrate on one single city all the strategic bombing of all German, all French and all English cities in all of WWII.

2. China. Do you actually think that China would allow an allied push North on the Korean peninsula? Talk about a recipe for nuclear war!

[M. Bréqs]

I think my fashion comment is pretty much on point for most people who view Bush so negatively.

99.8% of the world disagrees

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

[frankie123]

you missed my point though really - I dont actually think he will invade N. Korea at all - but I could believe if they didnt have nukes he might have thought about it

No way José. If Ill Kim didn't have nukes (which is debatable) the world could still not invade.

North Korea has the fifth largest army on the planet, and the terrain is favourable to the defender. This isn't some Republican Guard exposed in the Iraqi desert, it's not some irregular bunch of Taliban wieners... The North Korean army is huge and scary, even without nukes.

But the main reasons that we (the West) can't invade North Korea are twofold:

1. Literally, MILLIONS of people in Seoul (pop 20 million) would die. North Korea has enough conventional artillery to drop three hundred thousand shells per hour, and sustain that rate of fire for a LONG time. To give you some perspective, North Korea could concentrate on one single city all the strategic bombing of all German, all French and all English cities in all of WWII.

2. China. Do you actually think that China would allow an allied push North on the Korean peninsula? Talk about a recipe for nuclear war!

100% correct. North Korea has a crazy amount of man power. Wars aren't won in the air, they're won on the ground. As of right now, US should have no interest in waging war with North Korea, nor does it have the man power to do so.

[glu]

I don't think he's a saint. But I don't think he is the source of the world's problems.

Of course he is neither of those extremes, he is a compassionate conservative