One Day The Russians Decided To Kill A Bunch Of People...

[landrvr1]

There was a referendum held that indicated this, the validity of which was not recognized by the Georgian gov't.

There was a referendum held in 1992 or so in which citizens of South Ossetia called for complete independence. At no time did they ever desire or request to be brought back into Russia.

Why would thousands of them acquire Russian passports then? Actually curious as to the answer.
...and honestly I judge every world event by who is actually the aggressor at first, who hit first, and what the reasons are for. I reluctantly sided with the Chechnyans, but I'm not at all for religious separatist movements, and after the hostage situation where they took schoolchildren hostage, which ended up in a massacre, I lost all interest in their cause. The effect was blood and death, they deserve no sympathy IMO.

I
However, regardless of what you think about Russia’s aggression, it would not have taken place if the Georgian government had not made the first aggressive move. To make an aggressive move against a massively superior force on your own borders is frankly madness.

Yeah, that's the part I don't get at all?

They acquired Russians passports as an act of defiance against Georgia, not out of a desire to become Russian.


On another note, Fascinating how any Palestinian act of violence and terror are completely justified because of Israeli aggression, but Chechnyans' violent behaviour is considered appalling. Interesting, to say the least!

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[ThrowAway]

blind hatred is never justified, at best it weakens the cause they are for.

[landrvr1]

landr1, you're such an ignorant pussy it's funny))

Whatever you say, Komrade. The world is, after all, on your side. Bravo. You must be very proud.


I'm just jealous. Jealous that the US doesn't have the Carte Blanche to do the kind of Ass Kicking that Russia seems to be able to so easily get away with...


:evil:


"The aggressor has been punished!!!!!!!!"
-Russian President Dmitry Medvedev

"The aggressor has been punished!!!!!!!!"
-Russian President Dmitry Medvedev

"The aggressor has been punished!!!!!!!!"
-Russian President Dmitry Medvedev



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[landrvr1]

"The aggressor has been punished!!!!!!!!"
-Russian President Dmitry Medvedev


God. I read it and reread it. It still sounds like some dialog from a bad Roman Emperor movie.


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[mikemc]

They acquired Russians passports as an act of defiance against Georgia, not out of a desire to become Russian.

well, they shoulda read the fine print.


There needs to be a better way to redraw borders than war. If the larger powers could work together, when the ethnist conflicts flare up, they could say 'ok, you have a choice. You can sit down to renegotiate your borders, a process we will be happy to facilitate, or we can redraw them for you and bury you inside of them'.

Dealing with these international Hatfields/McCoys is literally taking too much energy.

[landrvr1]

They acquired Russians passports as an act of defiance against Georgia, not out of a desire to become Russian.

well, they shoulda read the fine print.


There needs to be a better way to redraw borders than war. If the larger powers could work together, when the ethnist conflicts flare up, they could say 'ok, you have a choice. You can sit down to renegotiate your borders, a process we will be happy to facilitate, or we can redraw them for you and bury you inside of them'.

Dealing with these international Hatfields/McCoys is literally taking too much energy.

Indeed.


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[mikemc]

re: timeline of events, here is some interesting info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Sou ... tia_(2008)

You can read this several ways:

South Ossetian leadership colludes with Russia, who supports their separatist movement's paramilitary efforts. The paramilitaries provoke Georgian armed forces with small arms and rocket attacks. Georgian President offers to negotiate, which offer goes unanswered amidst continued violence. Georgian President decides to deply troops in order to quell this violence, falling into Russian trap.

Abkhazian separatists see an opening at the cost of South Ossetia and Georgia. They infiltrate South Ossetia, and attack Georgian troops from therein, provoking them to attack, which attack is answered by Russian troops working in concert with the Abkhazian underground. South Ossetia bombed, Georgia bombed, Abkhazia gets a shield of Russian troops. Abkhazian underground continues to break cease fire as benefits their cause.

Georgia wants to cement authority in their territory, spurred by Western powers who want to ensure a flow of oil that is not controlled by Russia or Iran. Georgian President decides to clamp down on separatists toward that end, emboldened by US assurances and Israeli military training. But, things go badly, and separtists get a major leg up.

Russia wants to ensure control over oil flow and region. Uses paramilitary separtists to goad Georgian forces into war, Georgians lose predictably-- Russia having planned wel: poops all over Georgia, shields separtists, says 'ha ha' in the manner of Bart Simpson to world.

For strategic reasons, the US wants Georgia to request Western assistance with ongoing separatist insurgency, but does not want protracted fight with an insurgency. So Georgia is built up to a point of some overconfidence, militarily overextend but do not exceed their legal borders, and predictably lose to Russia. Russia earns world condemnation, ex-satellite states sharing anti-Russian sentiments strengthen bonds, EU spearheads negotiations. Outcome: international peacekeeping forces on Georgia's border [edit] with Russia, buildout of Turkey/Georgia overland infrastructure, pipeline secured, increased Black Sea presence for NATO, additional NATO jumping off point, Russia re-confirmed as world bad guy. Eventual Georgian NATO membership. Loss of Georgian separatist territories is collateral damage, minor in retrospect.

[CR78]

Some good insight from Col. Sam Gardiner:

TRANSCRIPT

Smoke & mirrors.......... business as usual.

[landrvr1]

re: timeline of events, here is some interesting info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Sou ... tia_(2008)

You can read this several ways:

South Ossetian leadership colludes with Russia, who supports their separatist movement's paramilitary efforts. The paramilitaries provoke Georgian armed forces with small arms and rocket attacks. Georgian President offers to negotiate, which offer goes unanswered amidst continued violence. Georgian President decides to deply troops in order to quell this violence, falling into Russian trap.

Abkhazian separatists see an opening at the cost of South Ossetia and Georgia. They infiltrate South Ossetia, and attack Georgian troops from therein, provoking them to attack, which attack is answered by Russian troops working in concert with the Abkhazian underground. South Ossetia bombed, Georgia bombed, Abkhazia gets a shield of Russian troops. Abkhazian underground continues to break cease fire as benefits their cause.

Georgia wants to cement authority in their territory, spurred by Western powers who want to ensure a flow of oil that is not controlled by Russia or Iran. Georgian President decides to clamp down on separatists toward that end, emboldened by US assurances and Israeli military training. But, things go badly, and separtists get a major leg up.

Russia wants to ensure control over oil flow and region. Uses paramilitary separtists to goad Georgian forces into war, Georgians lose predictably-- Russia having planned wel: poops all over Georgia, shields separtists, says 'ha ha' in the manner of Bart Simpson to world.

For strategic reasons, the US wants Georgia to request Western assistance with ongoing separatist insurgency, but does not want protracted fight with an insurgency. So Georgia is built up to a point of some overconfidence, militarily overextend but do not exceed their legal borders, and predictably lose to Russia. Russia earns world condemnation, ex-satellite states sharing anti-Russian sentiments strengthen bonds, EU spearheads negotiations. Outcome: international peacekeeping forces on Georgia's border [edit] with Russia, buildout of Turkey/Georgia overland infrastructure, pipeline secured, increased Black Sea presence for NATO, additional NATO jumping off point, Russia re-confirmed as world bad guy. Eventual Georgian NATO membership. Loss of Georgian separatist territories is collateral damage, minor in retrospect.

...and some people died. A lot, actually.




(you know. that nasty bit of truth that always gets in the way of Geo Posturing.)



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[djshiva]

Don't bother Shiva, he's not interested in the facts or debating the issue, he just posted this to start a flame war. Clearly he has nothing to say except to argue with lm. The really sad thing is he doesn't even give a shit about what's going on over there.

Exactly. He has shown this to be true time and time again. He is not interested in, or even capable of having an actual dialog. So i give him what he wants. someone to argue with. If you are foolish enough to want to debate him, go right ahead, but i can tell you now it will not be productive.





.lm.

well, i haven't been lurking here in a minute, so i haven't stayed up to date with the latest troll list. i read more after i posted and...well...yeah. i won't waste my breath.

[Machinesworking]

Nothing mikemc said points to Russia being the all out aggressor here though landvr1.

I'm with you on the concept that it's cool to hate on the USA because we've been an easy target etc. and on the idea that Russia is heavy handed to say the least, but I seriously doubt you can back up any posturing about the Ossetian passport situation etc. I'm certain there are no statistics out there about THAT one. "Yeah, we just accepted passports as a joke, you know to piss off Georgia! We had no idea that Russia, a historically aggressive colonial empire, would take us seriously??"

The truth is Russia and Georgia hate each other, Ossetia and Abkhazian are just excuses, but i doubt separatists in Ossetia attacked Georgian troops without it being obvious that the Georgian troops were there to start something.... ugly but true, both sides wanted this, and what baffles me is why the fuck Georgia would want this?
I mean the world has just watched the USA take over Iraq and regime change their government for lessor offenses, and Russia were/are one of the other superpowers worldwide with a long history of aggression towards the slightest hint of an enemy.

Also, let's be clear here, the main reason the world, and some of us Americans are more likely to be shocked by the US pulling this sort of thing is we are supposedly ethically superior politically than Russia or China, or Iraq, or Israel, or Palestine or etc..... Now I know that not to be very true, but the fact is it's much more possible for real change in our foreign policy, and our basic attitude towards other countries than it is for countries like Russia or Georgia with long histories of violence towards each other.
I have to admit I liked Ron Pauls attitude that we should let the rest of the world sort out it's own BS, and take care of our own problems. Didn't think his "Wall of China" approach to the immigrant situation made any sense though...

[Low Frequency Obstinator]

Humans are indeed a chopsy bunch of mother freakers.

Always looking for an excuse to 'have a pop'

Just a bit hard to stand between 2 waring factions saying 'break it up'.

Never mind, maybe the cockroaches will do a better job of being the dominent lifeform on the planet when were through.

humans are indeed cunts.

Maybe in the future, inteligent cockroaches will be taught that the human race wiped itself out with cuntish-ness and general 'did you spill my fuckin pint' menatality.

[thelike5]

Impose sanctions. Let the Russian people live like it's 1993 all over again. Not that things have got a ton better in the last 15 plus years but they certainly have improved since the days of Yeltsin.

Fuck, man. They called for a cease fire and it still hasn't stopped. 100% cleansing by Russia.

[thelike5]

humans are indeed cunts.

Why not just say Russians are cunts? When the USA fucks up nobody has a problem calling us out. When Russia participates in an ethnic cleansing everyone says "humans" are cunts.

Call the country out. Nobody has a problem calling out the USA or Israel by name.

[mikemc]

...but I seriously doubt you can back up any posturing about the Ossetian passport situation etc. I'm certain there are no statistics out there about THAT one. "Yeah, we just accepted passports as a joke, you know to piss off Georgia! We had no idea that Russia, a historically aggressive colonial empire, would take us seriously??"

Yes, it cannot be proven, it seems plausible to an extent that it was a 'protest move', but they knew what they were doing. The Abkhaz group did the same thing.

It's actually pretty innovative, basically allowing the population to 'opt in' to a new citizenship, and then invading to protect them. maybe we should try the same thing in Cuba.