Ableton Forum

Yeah, agreed for the most part.

One exciting thing for touchscreen comes - naturally - with controllers like Konkreet Performer. Multitouch nodes give you a level of control and craziness that you just cannot get with knobs and faders. The other way to look at it is that everyone loves knobs and faders for their level of precision. But what about the excitement that comes with random insanity? We've seen folks having to create Max patches - to work with traditional hardware - in order to get spontaneity and generative randomness going on..! With touchscreen and the right app, those doors are more easily opened. Not that these things are all random. Performer can also give you a great deal of precision control as well

I hate to be such a shill for Performer, but it really has opened incredible new sound opportunities that no other controller could possibly give me. That's essentially what the Omnisphere app does as well; though it's only tied with the softsynth itself.

I think you shouldn't be so worried about the CCK support.
As far as I am aware, if you're using a wireless connection at the same distance like your dock connector, there actually isn't that much difference in latency.

Tell me, did you measure those cheapass USB to MIDI adapters for their latency? Did you measure the responsiveness of the python API and connected Control Surfaces? Did you check the latency of MIDI Thru on devices combined with the latencies I mentioned earlier?
Its all rhetorical obviously, because none of us really did. When we talked about latency, it was usually about the sound and how to mentally compensate while playing. All the while not even considering USB to MIDI as a potential factor.

So what about feeling? Call me nuts, but I find playing keys on the iPad more responsive than playing on the computer keyboard. And a test by Charlie Roberts revealed a latency of 1.5ms. And that was a round trip. How the hell do I test the latency of the computer keyboard?

I definitely concur with you on the apps and their lack of support for MIDI Clock. If the round trip is actually that small, its almost like using the IAC driver. And there is actual OS level wireless MIDI support on OSX. So it should be an option for apps that are made to be played in sync.

There is a bottleneck with how much you can do over wireless. You may recall my work on the MB Control (LiveControl rebuild in MFL) which you mocked. That project supports 18 sequencers controlled from an iPad. I had to build things so that only the thing you see is being updated.
This differs from the Lemur where you could update dozens of hidden sequencers without dropping a packet. My point here is: smart development eliminates the need for an USB connection. And has anybody measured and stress tested that connection by the way?

As far as I am aware. It'll take some heavy solar flares to really disrupt the wireless connection between devices. I'd love to learn more about other scenarios where a wireless connections fails when you're less than 10 feet away from the laptop.

ps: Damn this is some sweet Merlot

LoopStationZebra wrote:The way I understand the USB port is that it's for connecting the iODock to a computer only. I don't know if you can plug in an external USB MIDI device and have it talk to the app like you can with iConnectMIDI. ?

I don't know either. All that the Alesis website says is "USB MIDI (Host)".

hoffman2k wrote:
There is a bottleneck with how much you can do over wireless. You may recall my work on the MB Control (LiveControl rebuild in MFL) which you mocked. That project supports 18 sequencers controlled from an iPad. I had to build things so that only the thing you see is being updated.
This differs from the Lemur where you could update dozens of hidden sequencers without dropping a packet. My point here is: smart development eliminates the need for an USB connection. And has anybody measured and stress tested that connection by the way?

I kind of remember that thread, but I seriously don't think I was mocking your project per se. Do you have a link? I seem to remember I was mocking M4L (lack of a runtime, basic routing functions that should be inherent to Live and not require M4L, that sort of thing).

I want to be clear about the primary reason I'm asking for USB connectivity for all music related apps: A common standard. Some apps use the OSX MIDI Network, some use OSC via standalone scripts, some use OSC via OSCulator. It's crazy to have to manage all that crap. The OSX MIDI Network is the WORST, because everytime you flip from one app to another, you have to manually reset your connection (though I'm finding sometimes you don't. It seems to depend on the app). USB is like a good old fashion MIDI cable. It's there. It works. I don't have to spend even a millisecond thinking about it. Not only that, but flipping from one app to the next is seemless and flawless. Devs should be free to implement whatever wifi method/protocol they'd like to use....as long as they give me a USB option as well. The feeling that I'm starting to get is that devs are in love with wireless (because, well, it is an iPad after all) and aren't too concerned about USB. I maintain that it's the app quality and seemless integration that counts. I hate having to start up 3 or 4 or 5 different script programs on my MacBook - depending on what I want to use. I'd rather just plug my iPad into the CCK (or, soon, the Alesis iODock!) and start playing.

You ask some excellent (and rhetorical?) questions about overall speed. Where are the tests? Why isn't there a truly comprehensive iPad music website yet? Where apps and programming and hardware and whatnot can be discussed and posted for review? All I see, pretty much everywhere I turn, is speculation - about any number of audio/MIDI issues. And if you think it's bad on the iPad side of things, the Android world is far worse.

CCK isn't possible in some scenarios. For example touchable, where most communication is done over OSC to Python. Apple doesn't allow/support using the dock connector as an Ethernet connection. This may change in the age of thunderbolt and multiple protocols going over 1 cable. But it'll require an iOS update. Same goes for MIDI, but I think the problem there is more in regards to the API's Apple allows and the restrictions in their rules.

As for the rhetorical questions. In most cases its almost impossible to get accurate results. You need to be able to build tools designed to measure. You can't test everything with a phase cancellation test.

In regards to the mocking. Maybe I misread the comments. I'm a bit defensive when it comes to MFL.
They'll take it from my cold bare hands! I agree there should be a runtime.
But I don't disagree with their potential point of view that MFL needs to mature more first.
If you check the changelogs of the latest beta's and future python scripts, you'll notice us Live hackers are getting some serious love from Ableton.

hoffman2k wrote:CCK isn't possible in some scenarios. For example touchable, where most communication is done over OSC to Python. Apple doesn't allow/support using the dock connector as an Ethernet connection.

Yeah, very true about the access to API via USB. Apple's not allowing it so far... Just found that out the other day in the touchAble thread, so yet another example about how I'm certainly no expert and I'm learning as I go... Just a musician trying to use the tools in the easiest way possible.

Question: Will we see Max enter into the app world?

LoopStationZebra wrote:Question: Will we see Max enter into the app world?

Not sure what you mean by that. MFL based control apps? Max on iOS? TouchOSC templates?

I got a MFL device coming up that is like 75% of what one would want as "OSC Learn".
Pretty sure the python hackers will make an equivalent soon.
And recent MFL and API developments are definitely also beneficial to the hackers. Access to devices in Racks for example.
The thing that MFL brings to the table is more flexibility and with Live 8.2.2 more user friendliness. And some sweet new stock devices like Note to Parameter.

LoopStationZebra wrote:Will we see Max enter into the app world?

I believe the reason this can't happen has to do with Apple's restriction on apps that are programming environments.

hoffman2k wrote:

LoopStationZebra wrote:Question: Will we see Max enter into the app world?

Not sure what you mean by that. MFL based control apps? Max on iOS? TouchOSC templates?

Yes. All of those. But according to stringtapper, Max on iOS is out of the question.

I'm not sure where exactly I was going with this beyond native Max for the iPad, because really touchOSC can talk with M4L, as can Charlie's Control app.

I guess I was thinking something along the lines of a native Max app in which you've got a true graphical front-end piece that allows you to build patches, then use the iPad as a true replacement when playing Max.

LoopStationZebra wrote:

hoffman2k wrote:

LoopStationZebra wrote:Question: Will we see Max enter into the app world?

Not sure what you mean by that. MFL based control apps? Max on iOS? TouchOSC templates?

Yes. All of those. But according to stringtapper, Max on iOS is out of the question.

I'm not sure where exactly I was going with this beyond native Max for the iPad, because really touchOSC can talk with M4L, as can Charlie's Control app.

I guess I was thinking something along the lines of a native Max app in which you've got a true graphical front-end piece that allows you to build patches, then use the iPad as a true replacement when playing Max.

You can already run Pure Data on iOS so that should tell you something. And since PD patches are treated as media files, there's no restictions getting in the way.
https://github.com/onereddogmedia/pdlib

And of course the Control (OSC + MIDI) app has scripting capability.

And then there's the c74 app that lets you interact with Max on the iPad:
http://nr74.org/c74.html

delicioso wrote: You can already run Pure Data on iOS so that should tell you something. And since PD patches are treated as media files, there's no restictions getting in the way.
https://github.com/onereddogmedia/pdlib

And of course the Control (OSC + MIDI) app has scripting capability.

And then there's the c74 app that lets you interact with Max on the iPad:
http://nr74.org/c74.html

Wow, the c74 app is cool. Hadn't seen that.

FFS. Thanks for sucking the fun and magic out of this thread.

http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=155913

http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=142347

Use em. I don't take a shit in your living room so yada yada yada.

beats me wrote:sucking shit yada

This should make up for my grave error in judgement, beats: Unfounded, unadultered, rampant speculation on the iPad3....

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-18438_7-20031288-82.html

LoopStationZebra wrote:This should make up for my grave error in judgement, beats: Unfounded, unadultered, rampant speculation on the iPad3....

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-18438_7-20031288-82.html

It better not be “mini”. Steve was right when he said “fuck that” in his original iPad keynote.

And sorry for my previous outburst but you guys were being like the gynecologist on stage at the strip club. A lot of useful information but really killing the show for the audience.