Ableton Forum

Great article!

Pretty much sums up how I feel about the situation.

ditto

that article ... is basically stating the obvious...

Well on the basis that all the thanks the brits got from pre-israel (ie before 1948) for assisting in providing in creating a jewish state was for them to turn round and start terrorist activities against the british - so fukem - they made this mess - now they can live with it.

Of course america having zero experience with the middle east back then also completely f*cked everything up and that has continued since (and dont seem to have learned anything along the way either) - so naturally the arabs are pissed off and always will be.

While the brits are definately not without blame in the early years for pissing off the arabs, at least they tried to be sensitive to the interests of arabs in the region, but their failure was in implying promises that were impossible to keep as stated, but at least had the right intensions behind them as a vision. That however got thrown out the window due to a combination of israeli terrorism against the british and increaing persecution of the jews by the nazis in europe. At the end - of WW2 the extent of the holocaust becomes clear and all reason goes out of the window - the view of america (despite protests from the british) is bollox to the arabs - israel can have as much immigration as it wants, and the arabs states get really pissed off due to forceful land buyups etc and population displacement etc and so starts israel vs the arabs round 1.

Other side of the coin - sorry to say this to any people here with arab symptahies or decent, but with the exception of the jordanian and egyptian goverments, the rest of the immediate arab neighbours are a bunch of utterly useless jokers who cant even agree with and make peace with themselves, never mind work with israel and the west to focus on building thriving econonmies for themselves, and thus stop being jealous of israel.

If they would focus on their own internal problem for more tham 5 minutes, then perhaps they wouldnt have quite such a pissed off resentful population. But for the leaders - I guess its alot easier for them to say that the reason their country sux and that the lives of the population is shit is 100% due to israel (while this may or may not be true - that line of thinking dont help anyone), instead of accepting what is and making deals with anyone who might help them to build a viable government, viaable economy and otherwise hugely improve the plight of palestinian and other arab peoples in the immediate vicinity.

Israel actually tried to help them, but a combination of israels approach helping on one hand and blowing them to shit with the other (even if in revenge) meant that was never going to viable.

Israel is right - they need to learn to accept and live with the situation - but israel telling them that is simply going to piss them off even more, especially putting on the lines of 'you have a choice, accept the sitation, or not. If you dont accept it - we will blow you to hell' nice - how to win friends and influence people - FAIL!

As for the OP - whats disproportionate?
Any revenge is a waste of time it just stirs more trouble and hostory suggests that it is zero deterrent value to people who have allready lost everything.

3dot... wrote:that article ... is basically stating the obvious...

... Only for the reasonable person

Proportionate or not, what Israel is doing at present is just plain fucking stupid. They might be wiping out a large chunk of the Hamas organisation in the short term, but in the long term they are just making them stronger by breeding more hatred for Israel.

I used to think that you can't negotiate with terrorists but I was wrong, negotiation is the only option if you want peace. Given the choice between peace and fighting pretty much everyone would choose peace, but you've got to give them the choice in the first place.

At the moment peace simply isn't an option for Hamas, the only option they are being given is to stop firing missiles or else - I'd carry on firing the missiles if I was them. Offer to lift the blockade, offer to release the funds and aid being withheld, offer them long term peace negotiations, offer them a Palestinian state and most importantly offer them hope.

jonny72 wrote:Proportionate or not, what Israel is doing at present is just plain fucking stupid. They might be wiping out a large chunk of the Hamas organisation in the short term, but in the long term they are just making them stronger by breeding more hatred for Israel.

I used to think that you can't negotiate with terrorists but I was wrong, negotiation is the only option if you want peace. Given the choice between peace and fighting pretty much everyone would choose peace, but you've got to give them the choice in the first place.

At the moment peace simply isn't an option for Hamas, the only option they are being given is to stop firing missiles or else - I'd carry on firing the missiles if I was them. Offer to lift the blockade, offer to release the funds and aid being withheld, offer them long term peace negotiations, offer them a Palestinian state and most importantly offer them hope.

Wow, sorry to be so blunt, but you give new meaning to the word lost. Hamas are the reason innocent Palestinians are dying in the streets. Hamas does not even want to hear the word negotiate. Hamas does not care about Palestine. Hamas uses the innocent palestinian civilians blood to push their agenda of kill all Jews policy. Hamas broke the cease fire in the first place. Hamas is not interested in peace don't you get it? Hamas is only interested in a pile of 5 million dead Jews. Does a piano need to land on some far leftists heads to get this absolute fact? God dang.

Machinesworking wrote:

Chang wrote: Palestine or Palestinian is no where mentioned in the entire holy Koran. You know why? Because the arab palestinian history only goes back to 1964 PLO. There was no arab Palestinian history before the arabs invented one out of thin air after 1948. The reason why it was invented was had one purpose, to drive the Jews out of the middle east. The arabs in the 1800's did not give crap about area back then, it was a wasteland. Now of course they pay non stop attention to it because there are Jews there that need to be killed.

Oh wow? You know some history, but please? The term palestinian came about to describe the arabs living in Palestine, what's so hard to figure about that?? Did you also know the term american came about to describe people living in America??
The logic is so awful with this one, and it's so spread about??? Who the fuck cares if the arabs living in Palestine weren't a specific ethnic group or not??? They were sold out by the west, and literally kicked out of the land they were living on... and this isn't some historical right, this is just a fact.

It's as silly as the hard line Irish who want all protestant, generally of scottish heritage, union supporters out of Northern Ireland because they were wronged 800 years ago? It's the same sort of logic, but the jewish people have the power in this case.

Look, Hamas are assholes, I agree, they use people like propaganda tools I agree, but to say that arabs are somehow being the bad people in this situation 100% is hiding your head in the sand. The very concept of a 'people' owning a piece of property because of history is just wrong, and to not do everything in your power to make peace is wrong. To secure areas of land that lead to years and years of conflict is just silly.

2 totally different things. You seem learned and very intelligent. I was not trying to justify current situation by showing roman times. Only show brainwashed tv clueless, that Jews were there 3000 years ago and not just "occupiers". Your post is another argument entirely and not what I meant. I would like to debate this further with you.

Chang wrote:

jonny72 wrote:Proportionate or not, what Israel is doing at present is just plain fucking stupid. They might be wiping out a large chunk of the Hamas organisation in the short term, but in the long term they are just making them stronger by breeding more hatred for Israel.

I used to think that you can't negotiate with terrorists but I was wrong, negotiation is the only option if you want peace. Given the choice between peace and fighting pretty much everyone would choose peace, but you've got to give them the choice in the first place.

At the moment peace simply isn't an option for Hamas, the only option they are being given is to stop firing missiles or else - I'd carry on firing the missiles if I was them. Offer to lift the blockade, offer to release the funds and aid being withheld, offer them long term peace negotiations, offer them a Palestinian state and most importantly offer them hope.

Wow, sorry to be so blunt, but you give new meaning to the word lost. Hamas are the reason innocent Palestinians are dying in the streets. Hamas does not even want to hear the word negotiate. Hamas does not care about Palestine. Hamas uses the innocent palestinian civilians blood to push their agenda of kill all Jews policy. Hamas broke the cease fire in the first place. Hamas is not interested in peace don't you get it? Hamas is only interested in a pile of 5 million dead Jews. Does a piano need to land on some far leftists heads to get this absolute fact? God dang.

his post reads like the kintergarden logic of a common, FOX watching hick.

CHARLIE! wrote:Well what I think is lost on this discussion is most of the violence is towards a military force that is attacking israel on a daily basis. If the canadian army started launching missiles at the US you think for a second they wouldn't be bombed back to the stone age?

I think its a sad story because the tactics used by hamas put innocents in harms way but it doesnt change the fact that they are a military force attacking another country... what is israel to do ? just take it?

well. they are claiming that they have the right to live there because god said so and gave the land to them. and so the UN said "sure, god is right. here you go", and the rest of the west agreed.

now, if your neighbour would to walk over to your lawn, and started settling himself nicely there with the excuse that god told him that he could live there, would you agree? i think not.

so, israel and the us wants hamas to acknowledge israel as a state, or else, when none of them acknowledges hamas as a ruling party elected by the people, and instead claims that they are a terrorist organisation.

as wikipedia puts it "A person who practices terrorism is a terrorist. The concept of terrorism is itself controversial because it is often used by states to delegitimize political opponents, and thus legitimize the state's own use of terror against those opponents", both parts would be called terrorists then. ironic, isnt it?

also, the people there doesnt care for the most part. theres plenty of israelis and palestines living side by side, theres chools that has student of both etc. so, why should this conflict go on then? because of the principle, i guess.

b0unce wrote:

Chang wrote:

jonny72 wrote:Proportionate or not, what Israel is doing at present is just plain fucking stupid. They might be wiping out a large chunk of the Hamas organisation in the short term, but in the long term they are just making them stronger by breeding more hatred for Israel.

I used to think that you can't negotiate with terrorists but I was wrong, negotiation is the only option if you want peace. Given the choice between peace and fighting pretty much everyone would choose peace, but you've got to give them the choice in the first place.

At the moment peace simply isn't an option for Hamas, the only option they are being given is to stop firing missiles or else - I'd carry on firing the missiles if I was them. Offer to lift the blockade, offer to release the funds and aid being withheld, offer them long term peace negotiations, offer them a Palestinian state and most importantly offer them hope.

Wow, sorry to be so blunt, but you give new meaning to the word lost. Hamas are the reason innocent Palestinians are dying in the streets. Hamas does not even want to hear the word negotiate. Hamas does not care about Palestine. Hamas uses the innocent palestinian civilians blood to push their agenda of kill all Jews policy. Hamas broke the cease fire in the first place. Hamas is not interested in peace don't you get it? Hamas is only interested in a pile of 5 million dead Jews. Does a piano need to land on some far leftists heads to get this absolute fact? God dang.

his post reads like the kintergarden logic of a common, FOX watching hick.

My post? If so, I'm in the UK so I can't watch Fox and even if I could News Corporation are the last people I'd turn to for a balanced view of world news.

You can argue about who started it, who did what, who is in the wrong and so on until the cows come home but it won't get you anywhere as there are strong arguments for both sides. Stopping it is the only thing that matters and there doesn't appear to be much chance of that in the near future.

jonny72 wrote:

b0unce wrote:

Chang wrote:
Wow, sorry to be so blunt, but you give new meaning to the word lost. Hamas are the reason innocent Palestinians are dying in the streets. Hamas does not even want to hear the word negotiate. Hamas does not care about Palestine. Hamas uses the innocent palestinian civilians blood to push their agenda of kill all Jews policy. Hamas broke the cease fire in the first place. Hamas is not interested in peace don't you get it? Hamas is only interested in a pile of 5 million dead Jews. Does a piano need to land on some far leftists heads to get this absolute fact? God dang.

his post reads like the kintergarden logic of a common, FOX watching hick.

My post? If so, I'm in the UK so I can't watch Fox and even if I could News Corporation are the last people I'd turn to for a balanced view of world news.

You can argue about who started it, who did what, who is in the wrong and so on until the cows come home but it won't get you anywhere as there are strong arguments for both sides. Stopping it is the only thing that matters and there doesn't appear to be much chance of that in the near future.

define "strong arguments" please.

Anyone mention the Israeli airstrike of november the 5th that killed 5 (or was it 6), but apparently wasn't construed as breaking any ceasefire? Although how an airstrike can be construed as not breaking a ceasefire defies any logic I am ware of.

Statement by Prof. Richard Falk, United Nations Special Rapporteur for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories

Certainly the rocket attacks against civilian targets in Israel are unlawful. But that illegality does not give rise to any Israeli right, neither as the Occupying Power nor as a sovereign state, to violate international humanitarian law and commit war crimes or crimes against humanity in its response. I note that Israel's escalating military assaults have not made Israeli civilians safer; to the contrary, the one Israeli killed today after the upsurge of Israeli violence is the first in over a year.

Seamus Milne wrote:Like any occupied people, the Palestinians have the right to resist, whether they choose to exercise it or not. But there is no right of defence for an illegal occupation - there is an obligation to withdraw comprehensively. During the last seven years, 14 Israelis have been killed by mostly homemade rockets fired from the Gaza Strip, while more than 5,000 Palestinians were killed by Israel with some of the most advanced US-supplied armaments in the world. And while no rockets are fired from the West Bank, 45 Palestinians have died there at Israel's hands this year alone. The issue is of course not just the vast disparity in weapons and power, but that one side is the occupier, the other the occupied.

Hamas is likewise blamed for last month's breakdown of the six-month tahdi'a, or lull. But, in a weary reprise of past ceasefires, it was in fact sunk by Israel's assassination of six Hamas fighters in Gaza on 5 November and its refusal to lift its siege of the embattled territory as expected under an Egyptian-brokered deal. The truth is that Israel and its western sponsors have set their face against an accommodation with the Palestinians' democratic choice and have instead thrown their political weight, cash and arms behind a sustained attempt to overthrow it.

diverdee wrote:Anyone mention the Israeli airstrike of november the 5th that killed 5 (or was it 6), but apparently wasn't construed as breaking any ceasefire? Although how an airstrike can be construed as not breaking a ceasefire defies any logic I am ware of.

Apparently they caught someone digging a tunnel into israel from gaza and went in to blow them up.

Timeline of the past 3300 years http://www.mideastweb.org/timeline.htm

friend_kami wrote:define "strong arguments" please.

If you look back at the history of the conflict it is really hard to say who is right and who is wrong as it is so complicated. Both sides have continually broken ceasefires, not kept to agreements, broken UN resolutions and most recently you could argue that either or both of them broke the ceasefire (see above post).

But I really don't think any of that is relevant, what will be achieved by apportioning blame? Its all about what needs to be done to resolve the conflict, which at the moment means pressure to be applied to both Israel (from the US) and Palestine (from the rest of the Middle East) to agree to a complete ceasefire and a return to peace talks.