Yes. Options are good. I think we've all made the case that an option would be good.ethios4 wrote:gurumonkey wrote:the real issue is whether a person considers Touch or Sound to be more important.
I agree...this sums it up nicely.
Again, I think it has a lot to do with live performance. In a live setting, you have to go by Sound. The audience could care less about Touch. However, Live has become more than just live performance software, solots of people are using it just in studios where Touch is just as valid as Sound. Therefore, some option to change Live's behavior would be good to have.
Scary thread about Live on KVR - please address!
yes if you read my post properly and understood what I am trying to say you would realise that I am disagreeing with Nico on this.Nokatus wrote:SWAN808 wrote:If as you say this represents the delay in Live playing the sound and it being heard and reacted to by the player - then how would you explain the nature and length of the MIDI events recorded when Monitoring is set to off? Is this the player predicting the future audio?! Where is this anomalous futuristic MIDI data coming from!?[nis] wrote:2. If the monitor switch is OFF, then Live records the note and shifts it ahead of time (by the amount of your audio output latency).
Nico has not provided a valid reason for this 'forward shift'. It doesnt make sense why Ableton would do this.
I however can show you how how Ableton is shifting back the MIDI tracks.
Do this test:
Set-up 2 MIDI tracks. Plus one audio track with a simple drum loop.
Put a percussive sound intrument onto both MIDI tracks.
Turn off the output of both MIDI tracks
Turn one of the MIDI tracks onto AUTO MONITOR and the other on MONITOR OFF
Now go the the arrange page
Record both MIDI tracks 8th notes to the drum beat as accurately as you can by hitting your keyboard/drumpad. You obviously cant hear the output as the track is off.
NOW. Turn on the outputs of the MIDI channel which had Monitor AUTO/ON. Play this channel back.URGH! Its out of time and LATE.
Now turn that track off and turn on the Track which was set to Monitor OFF.
Oh look! Its in time! According to what you played!
As you can see - Ableton is shifting the MIDI notes back when monitor is set to AUTO/On.
Now - in order to play in time - you need to be able to hear the sound event coming out of ableton - and adjust your playing to that - as opposed to hitting hte keyboard/pad.
Now do you get it?
Believe me, I understand very well how you're looking at this. Again this boils down to the differences of how we play, and how it's easy to view this whole thing from that one perspective only.SWAN808 wrote:Now do you get it?
I started laughing when you posted the test with the silenced instrument, as I actually just went and tried the exact same thing before I read your post
. We are on the same page as far as the methods are concerned, heh. The result: when I hear the sound I'm playing, the notes are exactly where I want them to be (they record right on the correct hits in Live's musical time). When I mute the output but still keep the instrument loaded, the notes in the recorded clip are too late, just as expected.For you, this is evidence of Live delaying the notes after recording. For me, it's Live recording exactly what I play exactly where I play it considering the actual musical time inside Live and the latency that is involved: I'm not yet hearing the moment when I hit the key, but because I play by what I hear, I end up recording dead on at the correct moment in musical time. So I don't have to correct my MIDI takes, I see how it's perfectly viable Live is not shifting the notes after recording, and I would like to keep recording like this
I think the most important thing now is just to get the option implemented so that everyone can decide how they want to go about it.
(PS: it can get confusing when people use words "BACK" and "FORWARD" differently in different contexts. One man's "forward" is moving notes forward in time, to a later moment on the timeline, and to another one it's the opposite. This is not the actual issue here, but I'm just saying you might want to specify whether you mean "earlier" or "later" when posting a feature request, for example.)
Imagine you are playing a hardware synth and you want to record the MIDI from the keyboard and the sound produced by the synth itself. If you are monitoring directly from your soundcard (for zero latency) then you do not want to also hear the monitoring through Live (with latency), and so you turn monitoring OFF and you do not adjust the timing of your playing since there is no latency. You would want Live to record the sound as you are hearing it (directly monitored), not as you would if you were monitoring through Live, which you are not.SWAN808 wrote:Nico has not provided a valid reason for this 'forward shift'. It doesnt make sense why Ableton would do this.
exactly, but until that happens we can keep talking about it so that the cost of bandwidth, server storage and employee time that this issue is taking will start to outweigh the costs of getting a developer to actually implement the option. then the only sensible option for them as a business is to implement it.Nokatus wrote:I think the most important thing now is just to get the option implemented so that everyone can decide how they want to go about it.
now nico you can do your part by telling the development manager that you've had to spend literally DAYS dealing with this issue and its still not resolved
It is not the monitored track that is shifted back, it is the unmonitored track that is shifted forward...SWAN808 wrote: You have created a complicated example of showing this - when I can show my example with just 2 tracks of MIDI.
Create 2 tracks - monitor 1 and set monitor OFF for the other.
Go to the arrange page and arm both tracks - hitting ANY MIDI device to record the input.
You will see that the track set to monitor OFF is ahead of the track set to monitor. However - it is the track set to OFF that represents what YOU ACTUALLY PLAYED. Ableton has then simply shifted the monitored track back according to the system latency.
SWAN808 wrote:Now do you get it?
Ok - then please refer to my large post on the previous page and re-read. There is 2 ways of looking at how you record and Monitor into Live - playing vs hearing you playing. You hear your playing and compensate for latency that way. I get it.Nokatus wrote:No I dont get it - I am continuing to believe what I want to believe - and dressing it up into a 'way of looking at things'
However there is no 'other way of looking at' the fact that Abletons engine delays MIDI recordings. Somewhere - in the engine - there is a calculation that takes the recorded MIDI signal and adds the system latency compared to the Monitor OFF MIDI recording which has no system latency added. IT CANNOT move the MIDI event forwards because the initial MIDI even MUST come first in order for Ableton to calculate the correct position of the second MIDI note.
Otherwise Ableton would just be plucking the Monitor OFF MIDI event out of thin air.
If you record and unmonitored track Nokatus - alongside your monitored recording - you will be able to see the timing of when you sent a MIDI signal to Live - and in the Monitored track - you will be able to see how Live translated (delayed) that into the correct timing you intended to record.
Anyways.
I have finished debating this particular point this with anyone but nis or another Ableton employee...I have provided more than enough evidence in my previous posts.
Yes, forward as in "to an earlier moment in time", not forward as in "forward in time (i.e. a later moment)"deva wrote:It is not the monitored track that is shifted back, it is the unmonitored track that is shifted forward...
Nokatus wrote:(PS: it can get confusing when people use words "BACK" and "FORWARD" differently in different contexts. One man's "forward" is moving notes forward in time, to a later moment on the timeline, and to another one it's the opposite. This is not the actual issue here, but I'm just saying you might want to specify whether you mean "earlier" or "later" when posting a feature request, for example.)
All your test shows is something about your playing, not about Live.SWAN808 wrote:
Now turn that track off and turn on the Track which was set to Monitor OFF.
Oh look! Its in time! According to what you played!
As you can see - Ableton is shifting the MIDI notes back when monitor is set to AUTO/On.
Now - in order to play in time - you need to be able to hear the sound event coming out of ableton - and adjust your playing to that - as opposed to hitting hte keyboard/pad.
Now do you get it?
I did your test and had the opposite results
yes yes... I should say earlier moment in time (I knew what I meant)Nokatus wrote:Yes, forward as in "to an earlier moment in time", not forward as in "forward in time (i.e. a later moment)"deva wrote:It is not the monitored track that is shifted back, it is the unmonitored track that is shifted forward...
Last edited by deva on Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
That's fine by meSWAN808 wrote:I have finished debating this particular point this with anyone but nis or another Ableton employee...I have provided more than enough evidence in my previous posts.
As you think you have my point figured out (you really don't), just read this before continuing with Ableton staff only:
1) On the unmonitored track I can see the timing of the physical act of pushing the key, in relation to the moment in the project I was hearing when I pushed it. Read that until it's perfectly clear.SWAN808 wrote:If you record and unmonitored track Nokatus - alongside your monitored recording - you will be able to see the timing of when you sent a MIDI signal to Live - and in the Monitored track - you will be able to see how Live translated (delayed) that into the correct timing you intended to record.
2) The moment in the project I was hearing when physically pressing the key was NOT the moment in musical time Live was dealing with when it was recording the MIDI signal of the keypress.
3) Live does not have to translate (delay) the notes afterwards if it's already recording slightly past the moment in the project you're actually hearing when you press the key. Instead, it only needs to move the unmonitored MIDI data ahead of time for the uses that require it. [Edit] Again, I must say explicitly this is a simple way of putting it, but it really is the perspective thing I'm talking about.
Carry on.
Last edited by Nokatus on Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
