Ableton Forum

Johnny Cash didn't invent anything but he's more influential than any artist you can name today.

He invented the art of stealing a Cadillac one piece at a time in his lunch box.

Anybody with a basic knowledge of Johnny Cash.. blah blah blahzaeskippity blah..


I think he was a PC user. He never used a Mac on stage.

H20nly wrote:I think he was a PC user. He never used a Mac on stage.

Thanks for trying to bring it back to point.

citizenchris099 wrote:
Richie Hawtin has or will do nothing Juan Atkins or Derrick May hadn't already done. Might not be the mos popular thing to point out but its the truth. Juan invented an entire genre of music practically by himself (like Kool Herc before him w/Hip Hop) but it was others who brought it to the suburbs and the mainstream. So lets do the math here. Richie is directly influenced by the Detroit pioneers like Juan Atkins. Juan has cited time and time again in countless interviews how influential Kraftwerk was to his music. Nuff said on the Hawtin argument.

For the last time, I will try to make my point clear.

From the above statement, what you are saying is that the only relevant influence is the first influence that you chose to go back to. You argue that Hawtin has done nothing to change today's music because Juan Atkins or Derick May came before Hawtin. In that case you can also argue that Juan Atkins and Derick May have done nothing because Kraftwerk came before. And you can go back one step each time and say that a particular person is not relevant because there was a person more relevant before him.

That kind of argument is utterly useless. And I am saying that you cannot argue this way because obviously music doesn't come out of thin air and people are always influenced by their predecessors. TO make it clear. Hawtin will site the entire Detroit scene as an influence and Kraftwerk and anything that came before. Juan Atkins will site Karftwerk and anything before. Kraftwerk will site anything that came before, etc. etc etc.

If someone asks me who has changed techno music in the last 10 years, then it will not be Kraftwerk or Atkins or May. It will be people like Hawtin, Vilallobos, etc. Obviously, these people were/are influenced by Kraftwerk, Atkins, May, but do not tell me that Karftwerk were responsible for the change in the techno sound in the last 10 years. If you ask me who changed techno music in the late 80's and early 90's. Then it will be people like Atkins and May, etc. But it will not be Kraftwerk. It doesn't mean that the people changing music in the late 80's and early 90's were not influenced by Kraftwerk. But Kraftwerk were not responsible for the change that occurred at that time.

starving student wrote: @da hand: how are you gonna tell me I don't understand my own debate, c'mon
man you're the only one who brought up popularity as the main focus we've been talking about the influence of kraftwerk, now you're trying to act like you've been agreeing all this time and at the same time that we have been talking about something else like the 'current most influential' of todays electronic music artist no no noooooooo, that was your side of the debate, that someone somewhere in electronic music land today is more influential or as influential as kraftwerk, you need to re-read your own post man cause that's what you've been arguing.

I will not argue with you anymore - as there is no point. Re-read what you just wrote, then re-read what questions you have asked me - to which I gave answers, then re-read what contradictions you have made with yourself.

starving student wrote: do I really need to tell you how influential michael jackson has been, you must be shuckin and jiven... I'll give you one hint that's like 1% of his influence, he influenced the whole boyband girlband era into existence.
please don't say that we're talking about who invented something, nobody ever said that but you, we're talking about influence. michael jackson didn't invent boybands but if you ask any of them from new kids on the block to brittney spears they will cite michael jackson as their primary influence, and that's not even scratching the surface of his influence.
as a matter of fact every single pop artist will cite michael jackson as an
influence. you didn't know that?

Fail. Michael Jackson by no means invented the boy band or girl band. Those have existed with bands like the Supremes, Temptations, Commodores, etc way before him.

I am asking you not out of ignorance. Far from it. I know very well how Micheal Jackson was influential, but most of it was not in actual music.

yeah but you're changing the argument to whos the biggest influence in the last ten years, that's not what the debate is about, by your logic you would have never even gotten in the discussion.....right?
we get what you're saying but you don't get the discussion you got into.
you're absolutely right if we were talking about who influenced electronic music the most since the day before yesterday it would be ritchie hawtin, oops wait a minute no it would still be kraftwerk. and just for your sake, i bet in the last 10 years kraftwerk has still been more influential than ritchie hawtin, try googling 'kraftwerk influence and ritchie hawtin influence' for the last 10 years and see what you find.

It blows my mind how these people think some artist just comes up with some style thats so new and so unheard of that they must have invented it.

Just because the first New York hip hop you and most of the world heard was this smiley face doesn't mean he created it by himself.

Just because the first Electronic beats you and most of the world heard was this smiley face doesn't mean he created it by himself.

Just because the first Cross over Country you and most of the world heard was this embarrased face doesn't mean he created it by himself.

Just because the first Pan Flute you and most of the world heard was this smiley face doesn't mean he created it by himself.

I suppose if you don't know about Zamphir you don't have a basic understanding of modern...blah blah blazae blah.

Those artists are influenced (and assisted) by others around them. They may have tipped the scales, but you could argue that the record company that produced them is then responsible for the genre. Or in the case of Kraftwerk and Hip Hop it could be who ever introduced them to NY first.

When I was in high school I turned some of my friends on to music that they had never heard before does that mean that I am the root of the genre? FUCK NO.

Styles grow from environments. Its truly rare that someone does something so new and different that they completely own it or deserve ALL the credit for it.

Music is way more organic than Machines Working, citizenchris099 and others are giving it credit for. You're trying to pigeon hole it. Which should come as no surprise on a thread fishing for confirmation that Macs are the shit.

They're the shit alright. The proprietary shit that pigeon holes you. If you like em cool. If you don't cool. Now crack that bad boy open and replace your own RAM and hard drive.

Da hand wrote:

citizenchris099 wrote:
Richie Hawtin has or will do nothing Juan Atkins or Derrick May hadn't already done. Might not be the mos popular thing to point out but its the truth. Juan invented an entire genre of music practically by himself (like Kool Herc before him w/Hip Hop) but it was others who brought it to the suburbs and the mainstream. So lets do the math here. Richie is directly influenced by the Detroit pioneers like Juan Atkins. Juan has cited time and time again in countless interviews how influential Kraftwerk was to his music. Nuff said on the Hawtin argument.

For the last time, I will try to make my point clear.

From the above statement, what you are saying is that the only relevant influence is the first influence that you chose to go back to. You argue that Hawtin has done nothing to change today's music because Juan Atkins or Derick May came before Hawtin. In that case you can also argue that Juan Atkins and Derick May have done nothing because Kraftwerk came before. And you can go back one step each time and say that a particular person is not relevant because there was a person more relevant before him.

That kind of argument is utterly useless. And I am saying that you cannot argue this way because obviously music doesn't come out of thin air and people are always influenced by their predecessors. TO make it clear. Hawtin will site the entire Detroit scene as an influence and Kraftwerk and anything that came before. Juan Atkins will site Karftwerk and anything before. Kraftwerk will site anything that came before, etc. etc etc.

If someone asks me who has changed techno music in the last 10 years, then it will not be Kraftwerk or Atkins or May. It will be people like Hawtin, Vilallobos, etc. Obviously, these people were/are influenced by Kraftwerk, Atkins, May, but do not tell me that Karftwerk were responsible for the change in the techno sound in the last 10 years. If you ask me who changed techno music in the late 80's and early 90's. Then it will be people like Atkins and May, etc. But it will not be Kraftwerk. It doesn't mean that the people changing music in the late 80's and early 90's were not influenced by Kraftwerk. But Kraftwerk were not responsible for the change that occurred at that time.

we are in agreement then my man. point made abundantly clear.
its the people that have this myopic view of things and refuse to recognize where the music came from that irritate me.

starving student wrote:yeah but you're changing the argument to whos the biggest influence in the last ten years, that's not what the debate is about, by your logic you would have never even gotten in the discussion.....right?
we get what you're saying but you don't get the discussion you got into.
you're absolutely right if we were talking about who influenced electronic music the most since the day before yesterday it would be ritchie hawtin, oops wait a minute no it would still be kraftwerk. and just for your sake, i bet in the last 10 years kraftwerk has still been more influential than ritchie hawtin, try googling 'kraftwerk influence and ritchie hawtin influence' for the last 10 years and see what you find.

I am not changing anything. YOU are the one who asked me the question below:

starving student wrote: who's the most influential electronic musician of today?

And so I answered.

Da hand wrote:

starving student wrote: @da hand: how are you gonna tell me I don't understand my own debate, c'mon
man you're the only one who brought up popularity as the main focus we've been talking about the influence of kraftwerk, now you're trying to act like you've been agreeing all this time and at the same time that we have been talking about something else like the 'current most influential' of todays electronic music artist no no noooooooo, that was your side of the debate, that someone somewhere in electronic music land today is more influential or as influential as kraftwerk, you need to re-read your own post man cause that's what you've been arguing.

I will not argue with you anymore - as there is no point. Re-read what you just wrote, then re-read what questions you have asked me - to which I gave answers, then re-read what contradictions you have made with yourself.

starving student wrote: do I really need to tell you how influential michael jackson has been, you must be shuckin and jiven... I'll give you one hint that's like 1% of his influence, he influenced the whole boyband girlband era into existence.
please don't say that we're talking about who invented something, nobody ever said that but you, we're talking about influence. michael jackson didn't invent boybands but if you ask any of them from new kids on the block to brittney spears they will cite michael jackson as their primary influence, and that's not even scratching the surface of his influence.
as a matter of fact every single pop artist will cite michael jackson as an
influence. you didn't know that?

Fail. Michael Jackson by no means invented the boy band or girl band. Those have existed with bands like the Supremes, Temptations, Commodores, etc way before him.

I am asking you not out of ignorance. Far from it. I know very well how Micheal Jackson was influential, but most of it was not in actual music.

didn't you just quote me saying michael jackson didn't invent boybands?
so ummmm errr fail how....?

you're incorrect in stating that ritchie hawtin is more influential today
than kraftwerk today, mathematicly speaking, there are more people today that will cite kraftwerk as influencing them than ritchie hawtin today.

btw thanks for this silly conversation, I've got all of the albums by both kraft and ritchie and I haven't listened to either in a while, makes me want to hear them.

if ritchie hawtin played this at the end of his set
it would kill everything else in his whole set

be honest what do you think the club would do if this came on after ritchie hawtin?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMJlWWqkoko

forget kraftwerk, this one song has influenced more than ritchie hawtins whole career.

starving student wrote: didn't you just quote me saying michael jackson didn't invent boybands?
so ummmm errr fail how....?

you got me on that one. posting a fail note to myself.....

please don't say that we're talking about who invented something, nobody ever said that but you, we're talking about influence. michael jackson didn't invent boybands but if you ask any of them from new kids on the block to brittney spears they will cite michael jackson as their primary influence, and that's not even scratching the surface of his influence.
as a matter of fact every single pop artist will cite michael jackson as an
influence. you didn't know that?

Ok, but then going back to this. Why would any boyband say that Michael Jackson has been an influence on their music? Obviously it cannot be the music as they don't even write their own music. They may love his music, wish to be like him in one respect or other, acknowledge his musical output, etc. but point to me the influence of Michael Jackson on a boyband's music or pop music in general.

I would say, Michael Jackson's contribution in pop dance and music videos has been far greater than his influence on the sound of pop music.

Da gloved hand wrote:I would say, Michael Jackson's contribution in pop dance and music videos has been far greater than his influence on the sound of pop music.

^ sha mon? what do you ME HEEEN?

starving student wrote:if ritchie hawtin played this at the end of his set
it would kill everything else in his whole set

be honest what do you think the club would do if this came on after ritchie hawtin?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMJlWWqkoko

forget kraftwerk, this one song has influenced more than ritchie hawtins whole career.

student I just listened to that whole song.
if Primus would have come on after it I would have been much happier. Scratch that... Primus could have come on at pretty much any point during it.

Outside of sparking a few nostalgic moments where I remembered leveling up, saving the princess, finding a free life or an enchanted weapon it was pretty boring. I'll trade Richie Hawtin's whole catalog for a burned copy of a Primus CD too. He pretty much makes me want to Sail the Seas of Cheese.