Ableton Forum

you should ask the guy that runs this site:
http://www.macableton.com/
he seems to know a lot about theory.

funken wrote:why do you call all the standard flats and sharps accidentals?

Because that's the generally accepted term for symbols placed before a note in order to change its pitch to some degree.

@funken

- edit -
©Tone Deft 6/11/12

funken wrote:

stringtapper wrote:

funken wrote:why do you call all the standard flats and sharps accidentals?

Because that's the generally accepted term for symbols placed before a note in order to change its pitch to some degree.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accidental_%28music%29

From that link:

"In musical notation, the symbols used to mark such notes, sharps (?), flats (?), and naturals (?), may also be called accidentals."

Edit: also notice that the article adopts that usage thereafter.

a really really good exercise is to write out all the major keys by hand. I spent hours in boring meetings killing time doing that. there's a trick to it in that you only ever use # or b, never both. for a few of them you can write them using only # or b. it might be apparent what's going on when you look at them listed out but writing them by hand really brings out the little patterns in the notes.
©Tone Deft 6/11/12

funken wrote:I'm not gonaa mention them anyway.

If you're talking about the Circle of Fifths then you're talking about keys. If you're talking about keys then then you're talking about key signatures. If you're talking about key signatures then you're talking about accidentals.

Listen I know we've already tread this ground, but I seriously think you need to just relax and spend some time with the fundamentals before you start writing about them. From a pedagogical standpoint, seeing someone say "I looked at it for three hours and now I'm ready to write a tutorial" is a bit… frightening.

What's the rush anyway? People don't learn these kinds of things in a matter of days. My school has four semesters of written theory accompanied by four concurrent semesters of ear training. That's two years, and even that's too fast, IMO, to go from basic tonal harmony to serial music. And that's not including the "Music Fundamentals" course that people who can't make it into Theory I have to take. That's the class that covers the kind of things you've been dealing with (barring the acoustics), (e.g. notes on the staff, clefs, rhythmic notation, intervals, scales, chords, and finally a bit of theory on parallel vs. relative minor keys).

IMHO, take your time and build the foundation.

Tone Deft wrote:a really really good exercise is to write out all the major keys by hand. I spent hours in boring meetings killing time doing that. there's a trick to it in that you only ever use # or b, never both. for a few of them you can write them using only # or b. it might be apparent what's going on when you look at them listed out but writing them by hand really brings out the little patterns in the notes.
©Tone Deft 6/11/12

Yeah that's good advice. Writing the key signatures out on staff paper and also key sig flash cards work well too.

There are ticks to identifying the key by looking at the key signature even when you don't have them memorized.

For sharp keys the last sharp in the signature is the leading tone of the key, so just go up a half step from that and you have the note name for your key. So in the key of D major C# is the last flat and that is indeed a semitone below D.

For flat keys the second to last flat in the signature is the same as the note name of the key. You just have to memorize that F is one flat, but in the key of two flats the second to last flat is Bb, and Bb indeed has two flats in it.

funken wrote:Well it would be a good tip, but not now you've copyrighted it!

Ok, off to watch telly now...

all fart, no shit.

Tone Deft wrote:

funken wrote:Well it would be a good tip, but not now you've copyrighted it!

Ok, off to watch telly now...

all fart, no shit.

Jebus Tone... it's a show about creative writing... immediately followed by the history of the stave in writing styles. this is pertinent!

funken wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7yb-JncKow

"I am playing all the right notes
just maybe not in the right order."


never seen that comedy troupe before, funny stuff.

I kinda wish I got in on this new COF direction before you went to far down the track (I was busy working). Its a great piece of knowledge, but I would have tried very hard to dissuade you from putting time and effort into it until waaaaay down the line. I deal mainly with students learning to a Grade 3-4 level. After the initial work associated with pieces, scales and notational theory in these grades, by far the next most relevant skill/knowledge topic is Improvisation. By taking the info you created on chords and scales, you could have easily helped Ableton users move into scale based chord progressions and writing leads over top, wether guitar or keyboard. This would have been the practical application of the things you started to talk about already. Would have been a great way for you to introduce some sound files for DL, or even a short video with demonstration. Finding ways to point people back to Ableton and make music would be a great separator of your site from others out there. G.

funken wrote: So, where do I start?

maybe here

http://www.knowyourraga.com/ragagyan/?d ... ments=true

funken wrote:I have a lot of time on my hands, as you may have noticed. I'm on long term sick, and not feeling very musically creative at the moment, hence the website. But maybe this one will fuel the musical creativity as well as build the tutorial series.

So, where do I start?

Sorry to hear that funken.

Just be aware of the possibility that all this theory may ironically make your particular kind of music creation more difficult than it was before.

funken wrote:So, where do I start?

Basically you want to summarize how chord progressions in a selected key can be made based on a scale. ie, triads in key of C. You get C-Dm-Em-F-G-Am-Bdim. Then a short blip on structure , ie establishing movement, creating tension, offering resolution and then returning home. Show how to record said progression for both the KB and guitar player. Keep it super simple, 8-16 bar max. Next either apply your technique for never getting a bum note for those without a keyboard or not yet confident to riff, or better still encourage those with KB's or guitars to jam over top with the same idea's of movement, tension, resolution and home...

Not to sound flippant though, it is a truck load of work when dealing person to person, let alone on a website. Still, your looking to occupy yourself right I have had success with students as young as 7 and up.

I use a series of simple exercises (basic song writing) all aimed to get a person to the point of improv/composition based on the above idea. I also either use a selection of backing tracks I made specifically or for those with access to recording software, set tasks weekly to first create the chord sequence and then the lead/melody/motif. This is especially good because you can also talk the basics of song production.

It can sometimes take months of coaching, but improv is usually a part of any reputable exam system from Grade 1, and IMHO, embodies the essence of creative musical freedom. Its the start of conversations about emotions, taste, perspective and independence.

funken wrote:I still think you are wrong to call all sharps and flats accidentals. I checked this in various sources. Eg http://www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary ... ental.html
"A mark placed before a note which indicates that the previously understood pitch of the note should be altered by one or two half steps (semitones). To raise the unaltered pitch by one half step (semitone) the sharp is used, to lower it by one half step (semitone) the flat is used. To raise the pitch by two half steps (semitones), a double sharp is used and to lower it by two half steps (semitones) a double flat is used. If the key signature indicates that a note be played sharp or flat and the unaltered tone is desired, a natural is used to indicate this.

Well, I'm not. I can guarantee this 100%, and nothing in that quote you gave really refutes the definition. The fact is that's what they're called whether they're in a key signature or in front of a note.

From the New Grove Dictionary of Music:

"A sign placed, in modern notational practice, before a note, which alters its previously understood pitch by one or two semitones."

And then it goes into a detailed history of the use of accidentals. Note that a key signature is "before a note." All of them to be exact.

A quick search of the Cambridge History of Western Music Theory comes up with at least ten examples of using the term, and a couple of them directly addressing "accidentals in a key signature."

And that's coming from what is pretty much the "bible" of the history of music theory.

From Harvard Dictionary of Music:

"In musical notation, any of the symbols used to raise or lower a pitch by one or two semitones or to cancel a previous sign or part of a key signature."

Again that's just the first line as the rest delves into the history.

Grove's and Harvard are two of the most widely used music resources. You probably don't have access to those sources unless you're at a university whose library subscribes to their online versions.

The term may have first been introduced to denote a symbol canceling another symbol in a key signature. The thing is that the practice of putting symbols in the actual music to change a note actually predates the use of key signatures! So in a real sense they've always been "accidentals," just that at some point composers found it easier to put a ? at the very beginning of the piece if they knew that just about every B in the piece would be flat.

The main point is there is no other general name used for these symbols regardless of the context of how they appear. If you can find one I'd be very interested to see it.

funken wrote:So, if the key signature says F is to be played sharp, all Fs are played sharp, and so an F?means an F.

No, a ? is lowered by a ?, not a ?. If you were in a key with F? in the signature then you would need to write a ? in front of an F? that you wanted to become an F?. If you wrote a ? in front of an F? then it would just become an F?. What a ? really means is that the previous accidental is cancelled, which is why an F? would be changed to an F? if it had a ? in front of it. ? and ? simply mean that the note is sharp or flat.