Very OT, 9/11

[computo]

now whos making generalizations.

[djshiva]

and i had to add that when speaking of israel/palestine, people tend to forget that the palestinians were living there BEFORE the inception of the state of israel.

Uh, you're wrong. Jews have been living in Israel/Palestine for thousands of years. And don't get me started on the whole...what is, or isn't, a Palestinian debate? Personally, I believe they're entitled to a country. And I believe that it should reflect the reality of a people who've rejected said country time and time again (read UN resolutions and documentation from '48 on).

notice i never said that jews were NOT living there. but the STATE of israel did not exist until the 20th century. FACT. and they displaced arabs and their homes with force. FACT

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population." Moshe Dayan, address to the Technion, Haifa, reported in Haaretz, April 4, 1969

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." Israel Koenig, "The Koenig Memorandum"

israel's claim to the land is a biblical mandate that is difficult to justify by those who do not believe the bible gets to justify anything.

Forget about God. Most biblical/historical scholars agree that a tribe of Hebrews lived in this area over 4000 years ago. If nothing else, history and archeology support the Jewish concept of Zionism i.e. a return to a homeland. And of course, the fact that Jews have been living in Jerusalem for 1000's of years adds weight to that non-God argument.

David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"

if someone comes into my home and lays claim to it based on a religious mandate,.

Zionists were very, very secular people. DJSHIVA, we've been though this over and over again. Where are you getting your source material?

Oh man, this is painful.

"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism,colonialization or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands." Yoram Bar Porath, Yediot Aahronot, of 14 July 1972.

a few more fun quotes:

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves .. politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. ... Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice."
(David Ben-Gurion, 1938)

and truly...no racism here...

" [The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs." Menahim Begin, speech to the Knesset.

"We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves." Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.

"One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." -- Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, Feb. 27, 1994

you are correct. this IS painful.

[djshiva]

I thank God that there have been, and continue to be, soldiers and politicians who are brave enough to use violence when justified, yet humble enough to know when not to. It's choices like these that provide us (artists) the freedom to compose and market our music.

that boldfaced word does more to illustrate the impetus for western foreign policy than all these pages of arguments and debates have...

So says you. Hey Shiva, perhaps your music isn't marketable. I ain't too sure. One thing I know is...show me an artist who doesn't want their music heard, and/or have an opportunity to make money making music (this takes marketing my dear), I'll show you an artist whose music isn't able to generate the attention or funds. C'est la vie.

Why is it that whacky lefties always parrot the same lines...

Country/Nation = greedy, suspicious, evil
War = genocide
Making money = bad

Oh and Ms. Shiva...it's marketing that has allowed Live to become the incredible software it has become. Thankfully the likes of yourself sit behind turntables and not in the Live boardroom.

fortunately for US, the abes didn't feel the need to bomb the crap out of steinberg to accomplish their "marketing". *random snipey comment cuz now i am just annoyed*

i will state for the record that i am done with this conversation, since schtreimel is more concerned with throwing about insults at "wacky lefties" than actually engaging in a reasoned dialogue.

buh bye now. you'll get to justify your beliefs to your maker someday. and his opinion will probably be met with justifications for wholesale murder. good luck with that.

[shtreimel]

notice i never said that jews were NOT living there. but the STATE of israel did not exist until the 20th century. FACT.

So what’s your point? There wasn’t a state for Palestinians either. The UN sanctioned two states, for two people. The Arabs and their neighbors rejected this idea…OVER AND OVER AND OVER again. I’m assuming you know this, or do I have to provide sources?

and they displaced arabs and their homes with force. FACT

FACT: Cops have guns that kill people
FACT: Black men have been killed by cops

And without any context we have…….facts? To go through the entire ME conflict in this post would be unrealistic. Suffice to say that if you study the conflict via moderate sources i.e. nothing from the Greater Israel folks or the Jews stole land folks, you’ll have an appreciation for what occurred in -48 and onwards.

David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"

Shiva…I can cut and past a whole whack of nasty quotes from Arab leaders who:

1) Sided with the Nazis in WW 2 (Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin)
2) Drove Jews our of their homes and into Israel proper
3) Treated Jews as "dhimma"

And we’ll accomplish what exactly?

DJSHIVA…here’s some facts to chew on:


The UN agreed to a land for two people...
The Arabs rejected this offer in ‘48...
Since that time, there have been 3 major wars in which the Arabs/Muslims were the aggressors...
The tactic chosen by some, if not many, Palestinians is the suicide bomber...

We’re not talking about nasty quotes or name calling. We’re talking about the loss of limbs and lives. Perhaps you believe it’s justified due to their suffering. I say…they brought this upon themselves. And if fingers are pointed, they should be directed at Egypt/Jordan for not offering the Palestinian a nation when THEY were in control of the area as well as Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Jordan…for encouraging the Palestinians time and again that they can defeat Israel via warfare. They were wrong. And they’re paying the price for this decision.

[shtreimel]

i will state for the record that i am done with this conversation, since schtreimel is more concerned with throwing about insults at "wacky lefties" than actually engaging in a reasoned dialogue.

buh bye now. you'll get to justify your beliefs to your maker someday. and his opinion will probably be met with justifications for wholesale murder. good luck with that.

DJSHIVA, you're out of your league. And it's clear by your cut/paste quotes. Your John Lennon-esque (with a pinch of Marx) ideology sounds lovely in a 1st year polic sci paper, but doesn't really say much about how to deal with:

terrorism
tyrants
murder
rape
and how to sell music and ableton live (y'know to turn a profit - jeez you must hate that word).

And to the rest of ya, the support via PM's are great, but it'd nice if you join the debate.

[err_fatale]

aahhhhh the human condition.....we forget that this world is fallen, and the human race has fallen from grace. We have some nice toys, science and medicine have advanced very nicely, but we still eat animals and shit shit, we are animals by nature, mammals to be precise. I for one am vegan, that is my small contribution to the advancement of the human race in general, and that is the most I feel like doing at the moment as i have too much to worry about simply surviving and paying my rent/bills......
just remember, it's always been this way and always will be... Those who possess true intelligence are few and far between. For the most part we are a race of technologically advanced barbarians, whether Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, etc. etc. etc. the human mind will manipulate any ideology/situation and perform the most atrcious (mis)deeds to justify it's rabid quest to satisfy it's most base desires.....

[err_fatale]

and don't forget

[RobertX]

Pretty interesting piece... up until he said that half of the hijackers were alive, while offering no proof. Oh... Mohammed Atta's dad said he heard from him on September 12th? That solves the whole puzzle!!

Just one more conspiracy nut job out there with an opinion.

Check out this article in Popular Science. It debunks many of the points brought up by this piece.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science ... page=1&c=y

[sweetjesus]

Pretty interesting piece... up until he said that half of the hijackers were alive, while offering no proof. Oh... Mohammed Atta's dad said he heard from him on September 12th? That solves the whole puzzle!!

Just one more conspiracy nut job out there with an opinion.

Check out this article in Popular Science. It debunks many of the points brought up by this piece.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science ... page=1&c=y

Good, back to talking about the video piece...

I posted a link to the popular science thing oh... 10 or so pages ago, but someone said that someone has debunked the debunking theories...

I dunno, i just watched the whole thing as a cool video docco thing.. ive stopped caring what the news and tv says a long time ago, just use it to numb the brain.

[shtreimel]

I posted a link to the popular science thing oh... 10 or so pages ago, but someone said that someone has debunked the debunking theories...

And this is where I find I'm lost as well. Since my academic background did not include physics/chemistry, I'm lost as to the physical proofs/debunks of how buildings collapse, planes explode etc. My intuition, informed by an understanding of history and commerce, tells me that the US was attacked in a manner presented by mainstream media. However how we got from there i.e. our dubious dealings (and unchecked consumption patterns) with ME countries to here (being under constant alert), is something that should be discussed and debated.

[henry ford]

yes - interesting

[shtreimel]

yes - interesting

Posted yesterday"

i too, am out.

notice how that when i say I;m leaving, I actually leave.

bye shitmill.

[henry ford]

Posted yesterday"

exactly....yesterday being the operative word.

[elemental]

i dont really buy the 'scientific' explanations, not saying there is no truth in them but (not having the knowledge myself) i would view them with as much suspicion as the conspiracy theories.

[hoffman2k]

12 pages and no freemasons, illuminati or skulls and bones? Boring.......!!!

Remember the good old times? http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... freemasons