Ableton Forum

This guy makes juuuuuust enough sense to keep the thread going on, but without actually going anywhere. Not responding when asked to upload an example, yet plenty of time to complain with just the right amount of vagueness. Eventually the thread will fizzle out, just like all the other ones did when the troll food ran out.

Don't feed the trolls!

Obviously I've never posted here before, but I've been reading this forum for a while and using Live for a while.

lm, thank you for your posts, which have taught me a lot. I think you've basically nailed it, in this thread and in the earlier thread
that you referenced. However, I do have one observation/quibble/correction. In the prior thread, you said this:

leisuremuffin wrote:having warp on will not make a difference until you change the tempo or use complex warp mode

You've made this point several times. I think it's mostly true, but not exactly true. I have found that even beats mode (which you have claimed is 'safe') can introduce phase-cancellation problems, if the clip is long enough.

I think this is easy to demonstrate. I used an mp3 of Joni Mitchell's "All I Want," from Blue. I set up a phase cancellation test, per your very helpful instructions. I started listening and got what you predicted: silence. But then I decided to keep listening, and the silence ended at about 1:46. I think this is exactly halfway into the clip, and I think that position is not an accident.

I think what's happening is that the indicated clip tempo (141.23 bpm), even though it matches the project tempo, is perhaps a little different than Live's precise internal idea of the clip tempo (which might be 141.23499, for example). So a tiny amount of warping is done, in the form of some altered data halfway into the clip. (This issue of bpm rounding is something you alluded to somewhere.)

My hunch is that complex mode distributes these alterations throughout the clip, so the effect is heard right away. I also think that in beats mode the effect won't be heard at all (i.e., the phase cancellation test will yield nothing but silence) if Live's precise idea of the clip tempo is closer to what's displayed. In other words, I think I would have heard nothing but silence, even to the very end of the clip, if Live's precise idea of the clip tempo was actually 141.23000. And maybe it would take a clip a hundred hours long to reveal the warping if Live's idea of the clip tempo was 141.23001, rather than 141.23499.

I think the bottom line is that if you want something closer to perfect, using beats mode (and setting project tempo to match clip tempo) is not a complete substitute for turning off warping entirely (and this is contrary to what you've stated). In other words, I think your statement ("having warp on will not make a difference until you change the tempo or use complex warp mode") can be considered reliable except for clips that are relatively long.

I have a strong hunch that Live is as pristine as any DAW, provided warping is off. But a lot of Live's magic is in the warping, and I think they warp as cleanly as anyone else. As you and others have pointed out, I think Live gets a bad rap because warping is so central to it, and Live tends to warp by default, and it can have an effect even when you don't expect it to (i.e., when the clip tempo seems to match the project tempo, whether in complex mode or beats mode).

A Live set demonstrating what I described can be found here (8.6mb). Apologies to Joni. Only legitimate owners of Blue should download this file.

Just load the set and launch the scene. You'll hear silence until about 1:46.

I'm using 5.2, but I'm going to guess that 6 works the same way.

ilia wrote:to 3phase:

ok, I'm gonna try this.

I think most sane people will agree that as long we are talking about digital audio, same sequence of numbers sent to the same converters at the same sampling rate will produce the same sound (ok, during listening tests there will be changes in temperature, humidity, head position, and your hormonal balance, and you'll be a bit older during the second test, but it'd be pretty tough to hold Ableton accountable for that). So from here we can continue as follows:

1. you disagree with the above statement --> end of discussion

2. you agree --> then when you are hearing a difference in the way Live and another software are playing a particular file there must be some difference in what is being sent to your card's DA converters. You can then route the sound to your card's digital outs and record them digitally to another computer or DAT. This will bypass issues like rendering and platform/driver interaction and should give you the digital footprint of the output before it hits the converters. Compare these recordings (yes, phase cancellation).

a. If they are identical, then what you are hearing is purely psychological.

b. If they are different, then measure the relative volume of the residue. if it's below -130dB (compared to the original signal), than this might be the round-off error that Robert was talking about (although it shouldn't manifest itself when playing just one file). If you can hear that, you have very unusually sentisitive ears (or again, it's something psychological); this may or may not get fixed in the updates.

c. If the residue is significantly louder than that, then perhaps you stumbled upon something that Ableton need to take care of.

Doing these simple tests will likely convince most people on the board and push Ableton to do something about this if they show the difference. Otherwise it's mostly blowing hot air.

A/B listening tests are prone for psychological preconditioning...
I cant tell such listening tests a proove either and i wouldnt absolutely claim that a singel track test will show the problem i am talking about..

FAct is that i learned to dont mix in live...and even when V6 seems to be better..cant tell for sure because i stoped using live since the crapy version 4 and only switch it on ocasionally..
I imideatly get the audio issue in my ears when i import my audio files from logic. The same track gets this dullness... avoiding abletons mix bus and miss on master plugins by using the hammerfalls processor to mixdown the tracks helps a bit..but as you know.. plug ins in the master can do quite something for a track.

What is going on with my files pushes me back to logic...and i hate logic..and logic is far from sounding good in the mix.. but at least its better than the dullness i experiance in live...

Isnt it funny that so many people complain about a certain dullness and this over years ..and all you can answer is that theese people are trolls?

If there are 2 realitys here we might look for a reason and the only one i can imagine that it might be computer operating system related or missalignement in the drivers of very popular audio interfaces..

i dont know..but there are the only areas where such phenomens could be caused if we dont want to see Live itself as the cause.

Thats the job from ableton to look for that..

Regarding mr henkes post where he admits the rounding errors thru gainstructure as i expected..

I informed avleton 1 or 2 years ago about the intersting publikations of the company rane regardig such issues and asked them to look into that as a possible cause for the audio issue... They offered me a free update when i can proove my case and i send the link to the rane publikation instead.

I never got an answer on that mail but as it looks now it had some results..


mr henke claims that the 120 db range is out of interest because we cant hear that...true..but we well can feel it..

we talk about errors..and errors sum up in each mathematical operation..
You see this with the noise floor in mixing desks and related gain structure..
its easy to turn a ssl desk into a noise generator by having all channels up and some heavy gain in the preamps...

same happens to rounding errors of daw with not optimized gainstructures... bit depth structures.. internal jittering might be an issue.aso..
The rounding issue well might be the reason for the phenomen and wehn developments in this area are not backed up by listening tests it well might be from little fx... but as i said..when you can measuer it it will show up in the mix...there ayre things showing up in a mix that arent measurable allready... an ssl has better technical data than a neve desk...but nobody would claim the ssl sounding better..maybe cleaner... neutral...but the coloration of a neve are hard to measure... standart audio analyzers will show that the specs are very similar in booth brands..but the sound is totaly different... I am no expert in the digital domain but because we deal with audio we experiance similar results in little changes of the code as we experiance in the analoge domain by using another brand of capaciators...
little changes in a channel that sum up to a total different sound in the mix..

I dont see why coding a daw´s audio engine shouldnd be easier to optimize than a mixing desk... That all daw´s in fact sound different prooves that as a fact allready..its not so easy!

its complex and still very much in development for any digital audio company..

the arrogance ableton shows is just a marketing issue...

reading between the lines tells it all...there is something to improove..wether mr henke belives it or dont, that this will be hearable...

some people at ableton seam to belive that this changes will have an effect otherwise they wouldnt spend expensiv programmers time to implement the changes... As i said..that allready prooves the case well enough

Lives audioquality can be improoved..thats a matter of fact
And its good to know that they plan to do so even when they keep their politics of denying the problem...

Additional to that ableton should invest in possible performance differences in certain setups..

jukeboxgrad wrote:.....
I think this is easy to demonstrate. I used an mp3 of Joni Mitchell's "All I Want," from Blue. I set up a phase cancellation test, per your very helpful instructions. .....

I think the test is only really valid if you have a constant BPM that is rock solid

so the point you make is valid - non-electronic music is pratically impossible to warp to the "original tempo" because music created by humans and not sync'ed to a computer is constantly wavering - so bar 1 might be 141.23 bpm, but bar 7 is very unlikely to be the same - and leaving it up to the computer to work out where the beats are is not really ideal for this kind of test

so the answer is you cant play a track like that with warping switched on and not have any warping occur or some part of the track out of time

and presumably you are talking about "auto-warp" which can only do so much and is not always accurate

the intention of these tests is to prove the Audio engine of Live alone WITHOUT WARPING is not inferior to other DAWs

and then if you are talking about whether Beats mode warps at original tempo - unfortunately the only way you can measure that with any kind of clinical accuracy is to have a precise BPM - otherwise how do you tell live when bar 3 starts if it get's it wrong? normally it is with a warp marker, which straight away means it is warped

and this is what people have been getting Irate about - certain posters claiming it is just the inherent audio quality of Live, when it can only be (and has been shown to be) the warping people are actually talking about

and your example does alot to illustrate why that is - because they are probably talking about situations where there is actually some warping occuring

hence why Robert got wound up by 3 phase, because he was not being specific enough to solve the issue of why he perceived it that way when the cold hard science absolutely proves that WITHOUT WARPING Live's Audio quality is not inferior to others

what you have raised is the more central issue of "when does Live warp" which is far murkier and harder to quantify

As Ingo from Ableton once posted in this debate, Live only goes to (I think) the 2nd decimal place when measuring BPM so occasionally you can get very slight errors at the 3rd or 4th place, but in most cases if you have a track that is consistantly at 128 bpm then it probably wont be warped if the track is 128 bpm

but in reality, most of the people bringing this up are not talking about a track that is solidly the same tempo throughout

if they were I think they'd have a bit more solid evidence to support their claims

3phase wrote: mr henke claims that the 120 db range is out of ointerest because we cant here that...true..but we well can feel it..
.

he also said other DAWs weren't really any different

seriously, you want to prove the issue TURN OFF WARP then try the phase test - from that point on the discussion is entirely about warping, which you cant compare to the basic operation of othe DAWS - you could maybe compare to their own versions of timestretching, but that is a different issue altogether

jukeboxgrad wrote:Obviously I've never posted here before, but I've been reading this forum for a while and using Live for a while.

lm, thank you for your posts, which have taught me a lot. I think you've basically nailed it, in this thread and in the earlier thread
that you referenced. However, I do have one observation/quibble/correction. In the prior thread, you said this:

leisuremuffin wrote:having warp on will not make a difference until you change the tempo or use complex warp mode

You've made this point several times. I think it's mostly true, but not exactly true. I have found that even beats mode (which you have claimed is 'safe') can introduce phase-cancellation problems, if the clip is long enough.

I think this is easy to demonstrate. I used an mp3 of Joni Mitchell's "All I Want," from Blue. I set up a phase cancellation test, per your very helpful instructions. I started listening and got what you predicted: silence. But then I decided to keep listening, and the silence ended at about 1:46. I think this is exactly halfway into the clip, and I think that position is not an accident.

I think what's happening is that the indicated clip tempo (141.23 bpm), even though it matches the project tempo, is perhaps a little different than Live's precise internal idea of the clip tempo (which might be 141.23499, for example). So a tiny amount of warping is done, in the form of some altered data halfway into the clip. (This issue of bpm rounding is something you alluded to somewhere.)

My hunch is that complex mode distributes these alterations throughout the clip, so the effect is heard right away. I also think that in beats mode the effect won't be heard at all (i.e., the phase cancellation test will yield nothing but silence) if Live's precise idea of the clip tempo is closer to what's displayed. In other words, I think I would have heard nothing but silence, even to the very end of the clip, if Live's precise idea of the clip tempo was actually 141.23000. And maybe it would take a clip a hundred hours long to reveal the warping if Live's idea of the clip tempo was 141.23001, rather than 141.23499.

I think the bottom line is that if you want something closer to perfect, using beats mode (and setting project tempo to match clip tempo) is not a complete substitute for turning off warping entirely (and this is contrary to what you've stated). In other words, I think your statement ("having warp on will not make a difference until you change the tempo or use complex warp mode") can be considered reliable except for clips that are relatively long.

I have a strong hunch that Live is as pristine as any DAW, provided warping is off. But a lot of Live's magic is in the warping, and I think they warp as cleanly as anyone else. As you and others have pointed out, I think Live gets a bad rap because warping is so central to it, and Live tends to warp by default, and it can have an effect even when you don't expect it to (i.e., when the clip tempo seems to match the project tempo, whether in complex mode or beats mode).

A Live set demonstrating what I described can be found here (8.6mb). Apologies to Joni. Only legitimate owners of Blue should download this file.

Just load the set and launch the scene. You'll hear silence until about 1:46.

I'm using 5.2, but I'm going to guess that 6 works the same way.

Thanks so much for the post! I really appreciate that you took the time and effort to put that together.


Indeed, the problem demonstrated here is that lives master can only be displayed to the 10ths place. so really the clip tempo is not exactly 141.23.


easy to prove, try this:

change the orig tempo in the warped clip to 140. (in the clip view, change orig tempo)

now copy to the second track and turn warp off.


change master tempo to 140.



now it cancels all the way through the clip.




so, you see, this will never be an issue with stuff you record into live itself if you dont change the master tempo. with imported clips, it can be a problem, but i'll bet you couldn't hear that difference anyway.





thanks again for the post, and welcome to the joys of posting here.



best regards,

.lm.




ps, can somebody quote this so rikhy can read it. (tell him to go fuck himself too)


pps: also in the older post, i made a user error when first testing repitch. repitch is absolutely safe at orig tempo. As Robert has said, the warp is completely disabled when at exactly orig tempo. However, this is still not so for complex. I'm guessing cause it's a third party piece of software.... or something.

forge wrote:

3phase wrote: mr henke claims that the 120 db range is out of ointerest because we cant here that...true..but we well can feel it..
.

he also said other DAWs weren't really any different

again read between the lines...

that sais nothing about audioqualitys in the terms of sound..
it just says that other daw´s are not perfect either..

that again confirms the issue opposite to postings of mr henke 2 years ago or so, where he claimed that a 32bit float engine is the same as any 32bit float engine... As it seems something was learned,,now they are not the same anymore... all are differnet..none is perfect.. small differences..but not the same anymore.

Ok..thats true..
the others just made it to get a better sound out of the situation...
They had some years more than ableton to handle the problem..lets be fair... But the question here is not about beeing fair..its about if there is an issue or not.

All statements of mr henke try to avoid the term sound..its all about measurements..but you cant build an instrument with just measurements..you might end with a not very good sounding instrument when you dont doublecheck with your ears.

so nough said...
the belivers wont get it anyway... the people that experiance the issue smile about the debate on this forum anyway since years..

As i said..its somehow common sense in the scene that ableton dont sounds optimal... even theire supporters (i could mentione some big dj names now) admit that in private talk...but wouldnt do that in public because everybody likes Live. But that dont helps in the end of the day when its about nailing subtile problems.

3phase wrote:

forge wrote:

3phase wrote: mr henke claims that the 120 db range is out of ointerest because we cant here that...true..but we well can feel it..
.

he also said other DAWs weren't really any different

again read between the lines...

that sais nothing about audioqualitys in the terms of sound..
it just says that other daw´s are not perfect either..

that again confirms the issue opposite to postings of mr henke 2 years ago or so, where he claimed that a 32bit float engine is the same as any 32bit float engine... As it seems something was learned,,now they are not the same anymore... all are differnet..none is perfect.. small differences..but not the same anymore.

Ok..thats true..
the others just made it to get a better sound out of the situation...
They had some years more than ableton to handle the problem..lets be fair... But the question here is not about beeing fair..its about if there is an issue or not.

All statements of mr henke try to avoid the term sound..its all about measurements..but you cant build an instrument with just measurements..you might end with a not very good sounding instrument when you dont doublecheck with your ears.

so nough said...
the belivers wont get it anyway... the people that experiance the issue smile about the debate on this forum anyway since years..

As i said..its somehow common sense in the scene that ableton dont sounds optimal... even theire supporters (i could mentione some big dj names now) admit that in private talk...but wouldnt do that in public because everybody likes Live. But that dont helps in the end of the day when its about nailing subtile problems.

you are splitting hairs now and missing the main point - which is the absolute crux of this issue

now you are talking about these minute differences, but that is not what you are claiming - you have been trying to say from the start that it doesnt sound as good - a blanket, ignorant statement

then you tried to qualify it by talking about what a pro you are and how much experience you have (and as Tone deft pointed out, dont assume you are among idiots, there are plenty of people who post here with some pretty hefty CVs)

and now you are even hiding behind a rather foolish "everyone I know in the scene and DJs think so so it must be true" thing

if those DJs turned off warp, or switched it to "repitch" and just used Live like traktor or something I bet they wouldnt have a word to say, but the reason they are interested in Live is because it is a bit more interesting that programs like that, and the unfortunate trade off is warping - you cant do those fancy things without it

really, the issue ends at "do you want the benefits of Live" and if so you should put your time and energy into learning how to use it properly, rather than taking this blinkard view that it's the program that is at fault

by now there are countless examples of stunning sound quality created with Live - Robert's "monolake" project being a shining example - you want to hear top notch sound quality, go and check that out

just learn how to use the tools if you want them

if you dont, then dont

leisuremuffin wrote: As Robert has said, the warp is completely disabled when at exactly orig tempo. However, this is still not so for complex. I'm guessing cause it's a third party piece of software.... or something.

this might be correct. complex mode is a third party "plug in" and it icould be the case that the wapr bypass will not work here. will check again.


3phase seems really to enjoy misunderstanding what i try to explain. So, once again to sum up:

I stated, that tests showed that envelope smoothing, sample rate conversion, calculating of EQ filter coefficents on every DAW creates artefacts. I also stated that this is in the range of typcially -180dB to -120dB if things are really bad. Of course theses tests were done comparing the five or six big names we all know.
I furthermore stated that I personally believe the influence of this is very low and does not really matter in the end.

I did *not* say, that Live is perfect. I said *no* DAW is perfect and we could clearly show this. A DAW cannot be perfect, because some operations *do* change audio and you can only aim for the most elegant way to do it, but it is impossible by nature to appy any change to a signal and expect it to remain unchanged. I stated, that Live works as any other DAW, and that it is correct that they do sound a bit different if you want to look extremly close. But differnent does not automaticly imply that Live sounds like uttermost crap and the rest is fantastic by the way!

It is really hard to argue with someone who claims we lie, we are arrogant, who assumes we might have a reason to obscure things and who is not able to understand digital audio deep enough to start a serious discussion.

Since the topic has been brought up here: The zipper noise as a result of volume automation will be dramatically reduced in the next release. That bit of ripple on fast automations will be gone

Robert

Robert Henke wrote:

leisuremuffin wrote: As Robert has said, the warp is completely disabled when at exactly orig tempo. However, this is still not so for complex. I'm guessing cause it's a third party piece of software.... or something.

this might be correct. complex mode is a third party "plug in" and it icould be the case that the wapr bypass will not work here. will check again.


3phase seems really to enjoy misunderstanding what i try to explain. So, once again to sum up:

I stated, that tests showed that envelope smoothing, sample rate conversion, calculating of EQ filter coefficents on every DAW creates artefacts. I also stated that this is in the range of typcially -180dB to -120dB if things are really bad. Of course theses tests were done comparing the five or six big names we all know.
I furthermore stated that I personally believe the influence of this is very low and does not really matter in the end.

I did *not* say, that Live is perfect. I said *no* DAW is perfect and we could clearly show this. A DAW cannot be perfect, because some operations *do* change audio and you can only aim for the most elegant way to do it, but it is impossible by nature to appy any change to a signal and expect it to remain unchanged. I stated, that Live works as any other DAW, and that it is correct that they do sound a bit different if you want to look extremly close. But differnent does not automaticly imply that Live sounds like uttermost crap and the rest is fantastic by the way!

It is really hard to argue with someone who claims we lie, we are arrogant, who assumes we might have a reason to obscure things and who is not able to understand digital audio deep enough to start a serious discussion.

Since the topic has been brought up here: The zipper noise as a result of volume automation will be dramatically reduced in the next release. That bit of ripple on fast automations will be gone

Robert

i am not saying you are lying..i say you talk like a politican..
As one of the sufferers from the sound issue i am following the debate since day one and there are statements from you in this forum where you state that any 32bit floating point engine sounds the same...

true or false?

And regarding arrogance..

you are not serious about that or?


However ...its good that you finaly start to work on the basics aagain..

audio quality is rather important on a daw... thanx god they finaly see a point in optimizing that... 8-/
Having read earlier statements regarding the issue made me question that this woud ever happen

You still do not understand me.

in previous posts I stated that summing two ore more signals is the same in any DAW. This was a response to that ongoing suming bus discussion that usually ends up in comparing a 1970s SSL console with a laptop.

I still say that a static mix with no gain change is the same in any DAW. The differences occur on a much more subtile level.

If you want to argue about some extremly small effects you need to be very precise. Repaeted claims of how much Live sucks is not helpful.

We are not finally starting to do something to turn a shitty faulty sucking application into something halfways useful, and we certainly do not do so because of your expert knowledge, we just constantly try to improve and further develop Live. Just as any other serious software company.

Robert

forge wrote:
by now there are countless examples of stunning sound quality created with Live - Robert's "monolake" project being a shining example - you want to hear top notch sound quality, go and check that out

just learn how to use the tools if you want them

if you dont, then dont

I learned to use tools even before they went on a pc base...its possible to have a good quality with live... when you work around it and use digital soundsources like a nordmodular the dullness even helps it..
it just dont helps when you want to remix complete mixes or playback high quality recordings with expensiv mikes...

Its a fact that you can have a better quality when mixing the live audio files in another daw.. Many people use this production technique and having ableton in rewire or feeding analog ddesks aso...
They are all stupid and havent learned to use the tools?

This is what i call arrogance..

and actually ... isnt mr henke a protools owner aswell? might be wrong..but there was a studio interview once in a magazin ..too long ago.. he might answer that or not
I just wonder if he really is doing ableton live only productions..sounds a bit too good for that..
but its possible..
i ve a handfull of mixes where ableton live shines ..as i said.especially in an all digital soundsource setup..theire the mushiness works quite allwright..

But this dont changes my point of view that it should be improoved for the other cases wher i need to access recordings that are not made in a fashion to work with teh special ableton live sound...
A daw should be able to act neutral aswell...

This thread has some very technical information that goes quite over my head. I won't be commenting on that, and to that extent I hope that this post isn't to disruptive to the thread. That being said, its interesting how out of the anger and emotions alot of really useful information has come up, and I will be studying that info when I hit my next writers block (i hope I didn't beg the devil with that statement).

One thing I notice is how subjective evaluating Live's sound has been for many users. To that extent, I offer my own personal experience.

I started composing music using Digital Performer before Live was released. Version 3, I think it was. I didn't use DP for long - I then stumbled upon Live 1.5 and have been using every version since. In the beginning my music sounded exactly as most described - muddy or lacking clarity, brighteness, and space.

I cut my teeth using Live - using Live's built in effects, and the few outboard synths I had. I used Live as a sampler, even before racks. With Live 5, I finally was able to get the sound that I was looking for - I know, I'm a slow learner.

I guess the point is, that my own subjective experience proved to me that Live wasn't the problem, nor the plugins that I was using - it was me who needed to just spend more time learning the art and science that is electronic music production.

Now, I have taken that knoweldge and used it to produce using mainly in Protools or Reason during collaborations with those who do not use live. That makes me feel proud.

But what makes me feel even better is when people enjoy the music I make. And on that note, I'd like to close with a experience of mine that I am particularly fond of:

A DJ friend called me up and introduced me to the Peter, Bjorn, and John song, Youngfolks. I came over, and on his Ableton only setup - no third party plugs - I made an electro/rock remix using the utility plug to strip out the whistling and the vocals, and slicing the drums apart and re-sequencing in Impulse. Now the track is mastered too loudly (went crazy with the Saturator), and the vocals have artifacts from the utility trick and warping but you know what - whenever he plays that remix, people go crazy. They love it. And I made that remix in maybe two hours.

My friend and I had a lot of fun making that remix. People are happy when they hear it. And if I want, I can quickly grab the Live set and move it over to my setup and re-mix and master it again. But would people really enjoy it any better? Would they even care?

And that's the point of Ableton - for me, its magic.

Okay, back to arguing.

Had that discussion again on sunday morning,
the whole fuss about that topic is just audio*esoterics*... People dont wanna think in new categories, its like: "hey, that app is fo live playing, you cannot do serious productions with it!"
This is Bollocks, there are some artists doing very neat stuff with live+knowledge, i cannot hear a difference between their productions and other productions done in a different DAW.

Its all about the musical idea behind a track, if anyone disagree please dicuss with EvilEvilEvil.

tata,

303

Robert Henke wrote:You still do not understand me.

in previous posts I stated that summing two ore more signals is the same in any DAW. This was a response to that ongoing suming bus discussion that usually ends up in comparing a 1970s SSL console with a laptop.

I still say that a static mix with no gain change is the same in any DAW. The differences occur on a much more subtile level.

If you want to argue about some extremly small effects you need to be very precise. Repaeted claims of how much Live sucks is not helpful.

We are not finally starting to do something to turn a shitty faulty sucking application into something halfways useful, and we certainly do not do so because of your expert knowledge, we just constantly try to improve and further develop Live. Just as any other serious software company.

Robert

Shure..get a bit nasty ...
I havent started to talk about points where live sucks..
there are handling realted issues aso. and your midi implementation :-/ oh oh...but you work around it.. i learned to love my atari again thanx to live..


The audio quality is something you cant work around in any case..
And i am not the guy that needs perfect technical data... i need it to have a good sound charakter that is fun working with..regarding that i liked the rough sound of ableton 1.5 more than the actual "smooshness"..
eithet clean and smooth or hard and gritty..in between is so...

however.. plain mixing of static audiofiles sounds on my system fresher on logic than within live..
it sounds better when using the hammerfall internal mixer than using the live internal mixer..

So whatever the tiny tiny reasons are.. there is room for improovement..
point.

The people that complain about the sound ar not your enemys and they are not all dumb people that dont learned how to use your easy program..

sorry.. i worked with logic, cubase, protools, studio vision, akai, publison, augan, fairlight..but i am to dumb for Live?

When is the next update? or is there a downgrade possebility to live 1.5?
maybe its fun to play with that nasty fucker a bit again.. )