zstowasser wrote: I don't think violence fixes anything.
Wrong. Violence does fix things, though admittedly only in limited circumstances. Decisive, overwhelming and annihilating violence fixes things quite handily. Japan and Germany were pacified when their society, infrastructure, and instutions were all destroyed completely, with no hope whatsoever of continuing to fight. France, after Napoleon was crushed the second time around, decided to play nice with Europe. LIMITED violence, or violence ended prematurely by externally imposed peace (which includes most of the other 20th century wars) only prolongs and delays conflict, which will fester over time.
zstowasser wrote:
Please, for the love of [insert god here], can you try to put yourself in their shoes? Please, I beg of you. Just try. It won't be that hard, I promise. But you might need to change your mind. I know it sounds scary. Just give it a shot. Please.
Despite your condescending, sanctimonious exhortation, I'll actually humour you and answer your question. I have "been in more people's shoes" than you expect amigo; I have travelled quite widely and seen more of the planet and met more of its inhabitants than probably 99.9% of North Americans; and not just as a member of the military.
zstowasser wrote:
After you do that, answer me this. I believe deep down that we are all good people. Do you? Or do you think that we are all sinners / evil / bad people and nothing can ever be done about it, so we must control everything. And if that is the case, how can you "justify" telling other people how to live, especially through force, if we are all bad people? Or is it that "some people" are bad, and "we in the west" happen to be the good ones, so it is our duty to protect them from themselves?
You're offering a false Trilemma (is there such a word?). I won't let you pigeonhole my opinion into one of your three easily digestible categories.
Western Civilization, as I stated elsewhere, is the greatest achievement of humanity. We doubled the human lifespan through medicine, we created modern democracy, we were the first to abolish slavery, we were the first to embrace rationality and secularism, we were the first to emancipate women, and the first to achieve the concept of racial equality. We have pushed the boundaries of science and technology, being the first to achieve flight, break into space, and establish mass communication. ALMOST EVERYTHING THAT IS GOOD ABOUT THE 21st CENTURY COMES FROM THE ACHIEVEMENTS OF WESTERN CIVILIZATION.
Meanwhile, you have 1 billion victims. They're victims of a cult. They were indoctrinated at birth, into a cult that despite illusions of superiority, for the last 800 years has accomplished nothing of a scale similar to what the West has done. That has created resentment and jealousy. Now, before I go on, let me be clear; I don't hate muslims at all. I hate the ideology that has crushed their potential and relegated them to a tertiary role in the world.
Islam's greatest accomplishments are all over 800 years ago, and since then all they have been able to accomplish is conquest. Samuel Huntington summed it up nicely in the Clash of Civilizations. Check it out, it's an informative read, and quite prescient. In it, he shows that Islam has been hostile to it's neighbours for all its existance.
Why is Islam so hostile to neighbours? Doctrinally, they're compelled to; their founder was a conquerer. Also, I remember reading that the economy of a pure Quaranic islamic state is unsustainable. Strict Islam dictates that all muslims must pay zakat (tax) equal to 2.5% of their wealth annually. In fact, in strict sharia, the state didn't even get to control how the Zakat was given; it could be given directly to poorer muslims, or to finance mosques or works of art, rather than operating the mechanisms of a state. Obviously, it is impossible to sustain a state on such a pittance; as such, muslim states for the last 1200 years have depended on either war booty or jizya from their dhimmi population for sustainment. Thus, islam was forced to become the world's largest extortion racket. As dhimmi found it more profitable (and less dangerous) to convert, muslim states were forced to constantly expand, to collect more war booty and to conquer more dhimmis.
While Western Civilization (characterized in the middle ages primarily by Christianity) had its fair share of intolerance and war, our society matured; That was the Reformation and the Age of Reason. Islam needs a reformation desperately. This world is too small to coexist with one billion people trapped in a 7th century mindset. Islam needs to go through the same process that Christianity did.
That said, there are some reformers in islam. Tarek Fatah, Ishrad Manji, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, and Wafa Sultan amongst them. However, they are a minority, and they live under threat of death. Further, they all (with the exception of Mr. Fatah) believe that the quran should not be taken literally. Plus, the fact that these people are so newsworthy and famous is in itself explicit evidence that muslims of their outlook are rare - though hopefully with greater Western influence, muslims like them will become more common.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarek_Fatah
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wafa_Sultan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irshad_Manji
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali
Which muslim states are the most stable today? Dubai, Kuwait, and Turkey come to mind. What do they have in common? Ahhhh, they've accepted elements of Western Civilization! Why are muslims in Western nations better off both economically and interms of personal liberty than their brethren in muslim socieities? Because of the positive, secularist influence of Western Civilization perhaps? It seems that it's self evident why there's such a strong desire to emigrate to Western Europe and North America; with very few exceptions, most muslims who emigrate want to enjoy the benefits of western society (stability, economic opportunity, religious freedom, political empowerment, etc).
Anyways, to get back on subject, yes, we in the West must not necessarily;
zstowasser wrote: ...protect them from themselves?
We in the west must help the reformers in Islam achieve greater influence. The survival of humanity depends on it. That's why the West needs to maintain a presence throughout the world, particularly in the Middle East.
hope we learned something together.