OT: meat is Murder

[jesso]

Throwaway, are you SURE that most people in the world eat meat? Don't you mean most people in the developed world and the western world?
Meat was a luxury for most people only a hundred or so years ago. Thats why only rich people got gout and heart disease.

[jsg4z]

Throwaway, are you SURE that most people in the world eat meat? Don't you mean most people in the developed world and the western world?
Meat was a luxury for most people only a hundred or so years ago. Thats why only rich people got gout and heart disease.

Well this one site suggests 97% of America eats meat.
http://www.vegetariantimes.com/features ... torial/667
So yea, its reasonable to conclude that MOST of the world eats meat. Probably more like 80%. In India there are more prolly 40%-50% but they arent vegan because they like yogurt etc.

[Ed J]

That's impressive logic, if almost all americans do it, SO MUST EVERYONE ELSE!!!!!

[ThrowAway]

Name a country where you think majority of the population are vegetarians.

China, India and US have the three largest populations and the majority of those countries are meat eaters. Hmmm what culture could be as far away from "western" culture as possible....lets look at Iran. Excuse me while I google this............ Yeah, nope not there either. Maybe Australia has a mostly vegetarian population, I have never met an out of shape aussie even in their 60's.......... According to the national nutrition survey in 1995 3.7% of the population didnt eat meat. Im thinking Turkey is probably the only country on the planet that wouldnt really surprise me if they were vegetarian......After looking for a while I couldnt find anything. I look some more tonight.

[bagginz]

97% of America eats meat.
http://www.vegetariantimes.com/features ... torial/667
So yea, its reasonable to conclude that MOST of the world eats meat. Probably more like 80%. In India there are more prolly 40%-50% but they arent vegan because they like yogurt etc.

While I don't disagree with your guess, your method is rather U.S. centric don't you think?

The USA represents 5% of the world's population. (population of 305 million)

India has a population of 1,170 million of which 31% are strict vegetarian (no meat, fish eggs or any derivatives)

Therefore there are more vegetarians in India than the entire population of the United States combined.

Cheers,
bagginz



"....31% of Indians are vegetarians, while another 9% consumes egg. Surveys indicate that even Indians who do eat meat, do so infrequently, with less than 30% consuming it regularly."

Sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism_by_country

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographi ... ted_States

[ThrowAway]

Throwaway, are you SURE that most people in the world eat meat? Don't you mean most people in the developed world and the western world?
Meat was a luxury for most people only a hundred or so years ago. Thats why only rich people got gout and heart disease.

Well this one site suggests 97% of America eats meat.
http://www.vegetariantimes.com/features ... torial/667
So yea, its reasonable to conclude that MOST of the world eats meat. Probably more like 80%. In India there are more prolly 40%-50% but they arent vegan because they like yogurt etc.

I doubt that 40-50% of india are vegetarian. I dont think people who cant afford meat would fall under the category of vegetarian because given the opportunity to eat meat they wouldnt blink an eye before eating it.

[Ed J]

I wasn't arguing with the statement, just amused at the logic =]

[ThrowAway]

While I don't disagree with your guess, your method is rather U.S. centric don't you think?

The USA represents 5% of the world's population. (population of 305 million)

India has a population of 1,170 million of which 31% are strict vegetarian (no meat, fish eggs or any derivatives)

Therefore there are more vegetarians in India than the entire population of the United States combined.

Cheers,
bagginz



"....31% of Indians are vegetarians, while another 9% consumes egg. Surveys indicate that even Indians who do eat meat, do so infrequently, with less than 30% consuming it regularly."

Sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism_by_country

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographi ... ted_States

Its a pretty undeniable fact the majority of worlds population are meat eaters.


edit- I misread you bagginz, sorry.

[jsg4z]

That's impressive logic, if almost all americans do it, SO MUST EVERYONE ELSE!!!!!

i am not of the mindset that america is the only country on the planet. i believe we can blame GWB for that.

i skewed my 'guess' because of our population percentage. i didnt do any actual research though, i am curious to know now...

80% is my guess.

[jsg4z]

I doubt that 40-50% of india are vegetarian. I dont think people who cant afford meat would fall under the category of vegetarian because given the opportunity to eat meat they wouldnt blink an eye before eating it.

Thats actually an interesting point, how do you account for people who can't eat meat but would if they could.

[aisling]

Greetings aisling,

Not only useful, but encouraging, inspiring, and quite humble for a man of your contributions to the music I enjoy.

Cheers dude. As I said, glad that you foundsome of my blithering useful...

How long have you been a vegan? I know you mention other significant lifestyle changes, and constructive life habits (In interviews I have read).....

I become vegan earlier this year. I was strict vegetarian for 10 years before that (no meat, fish, or eggs or anything containing them) so the switch to vegan was easy for me.

Why?

Aside from the ethical/compassionate reasons (which are important to me) and the huge ecological benefits the argument for the health benefits is overwhelmingly positive.

There's an avalanche of data to support that a plant based diet is by far the best way for a human being to stay healthy and vital and that the so called western diet is actually the cause of the explosion of degenerative diseases in the developed world.

A couple of examples:
Type 2 diabetes: Go onto a vegan diet and on average in two weeks the symptoms will stop and the disease begin to reverse (as long as your diet remains plant based)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VOSPVg1 ... re=related and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1H5vjxmt6Y

Want to actually reverse heart disease and heal plaqued up arteries? Sounds impossible but again, a plant based diet:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNeWCvLZ ... re=related

More detailed video here: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 4951404318

That's just the tip of the iceberg for the health benefits.

o.k. so...

<<gets off soapbox>>

If you ever get the chance to come to northern california (Sonoma/mendecino counties), your music would be well recieved... maybe next year for the health and harmony festival, or earth dance?

Actually I'll be playing in the U.S next month, but only on the east coast. No plans for Cali this time- unfortunately. But thanks for the invitation

Best wishes,
bagginz

cool stuff, thank you for the reply and response. All the best in continued inspiration, creativity and prosperity to you.

[ThrowAway]

I think the best point that could be made for vegetarianism is it is healthier than the other extreme which is to eat a lot of meat. I myself was the healthiest Ive ever been when I only ate small portions of fish or chicken at most 3 meals a week. It just irks me the attitudes and sensationalist bullshit I am subjected to when I regularly shop at places where vegan/vegetarian/health food is sold. They rival the annoying enthusiasm and disregard for other peoples beliefs and thoughts of evangelical christians from the midwest in trying to spread their brand of "truth".

[Machinesworking]

You believe that animal slaughter for the purposes of food harvesting is killing "for no reason?" Clearly there is a reason or it wouldn't be happening at all.

Not at all, I'm saying that raising animals in metal boxes in cages slightly larger than the actual animal, or raising them so tightly packed they have to be fed mass amounts of antibiotics to not die in the hundreds, yeah that's unnatural, and making the comparison to nature to alleviate the ridiculous conditions factory farming is done in, is silly at best. <--- but right here, you're comeback and my reply becomes just semantic arguing with no resolution. You are OK with factory farming conditions, I think it's unnecessary and selfish on mankinds part. That, is the truth, otherwise what are we talking about? I do enjoy your posts though, not at all about that. What are our parameters here? This is a HUGE subject to say the least.

I have always had a problem with the conventional definition of the word "natural." If humans are doing it, then there is obviously something "natural" about it. That is to say that it is part of human nature to have developed to the point of taking such actions simply because... well, we did. I'm not speaking of what could have happened, and not what should happen, but what did happen. And history tells us that it was in some part of human nature to devise these methods of food harvesting.

Well in many ways our ability to refine and serve food low in fiber and high in fat, sugar, and salt is a great way to get rid of the elderly even though we have advanced medicine tremendously in the last 200 years. That is 'natural', but for the sake of clarity what I mean by natural is simply that it's part of a cycle of life that brings health and strength to the person and the planet etc. In your own terms nuclear power in not unnatural, so we have to define what is a state close to the best plan of action for healthy living with a different term according to your principals.
Let's say evolutionarily beneficial? I do not believe that factory farming conditions, and the meat produced are of a quality that advances mankind in a positive direction evolutionarily, both in the psychological and physical realm. Mentally you accept that some of the food you eat will have lived in horrible conditions, in abject misery. This to me is not a psychologically beneficial state. I'm not convinced that animals took out of their natural state, (no arguments there I hope, living life in a box or pen in heavily crowded conditions fed a diet specifically designed with weight gain in mind and not survival in the wild, is not a natural state for that animal etc.) are as capable of giving anything akin to real sustenance.

Raw natural food people VS Meat and potatoes types, well physically in almost every case, eventually the meat and potatoes types end up at 35 or so pudgy and overweight, with health problems. Most of the natural food people I know who haven't succumbed to an addictive substance that negates the benefits are extremely healthy compared.

In the end though it's hard to deny that mankind has a self destruct urge, and loves living in denial, so it's entirely possible that it's 'natural' for us to do things that aren't really that humane or beneficial to us. That we will continue to ignore all signs of our own impending overpopulation and lowered quality of air, water and food, until we destroy ourselves. It's oddly comforting to know that some animals will survive whatever deadly dramatic travesty we perpetuate.

I used to think differently about this, mankind should be the #1 concern of any human, natural to be etc. but..

(all other) Animals > People - no exceptions.

[Machinesworking]

I think the best point that could be made for vegetarianism is it is healthier than the other extreme which is to eat a lot of meat. I myself was the healthiest Ive ever been when I only ate small portions of fish or chicken at most 3 meals a week. It just irks me the attitudes and sensationalist bullshit I am subjected to when I regularly shop at places where vegan/vegetarian/health food is sold. They rival the annoying enthusiasm and disregard for other peoples beliefs and thoughts of evangelical christians from the midwest in trying to spread their brand of "truth".

Personally I think all people who congregate on a single like or habit, tend to be hostile towards those that do not share their enthusiasm. Don't judge metal, goth, techno, or punk based on the extremist fans, and I would say the same about people who go to gyms all the time or employees at organic food stores etc. It doesn't mean the music, food or exercise program is not great if there are 'fundamentalists' groping identity from the 'lifestyle'! I'm vegan, I have no vegan friends, not because I hate vegans, but because I tend to like musicians and artists who are intellectually entertaining, not necessarily because they eat the same food etc.

[jesso]

Well done Machinesworking, your post says what I wanted to say, but had neither the time, eloquence or intelligence to put across as well as you just did.