Ableton Forum

Instead of saying "hip hop" v "rap" is it more a case of "old-skool hip hop' v "gansta rap"? Or am I talking outa my ass?

Like in my case, I loved hip hop when I first heard it way back when, Grandmaster Flash, Eric B, KRS 1, PE and so on. However, once a certain overriding style kicked in that seemed slower to me and more of a one-trick pony lyrically, I lost interest. Wasn't til many years later that I actually listened to Dre and stuff and realised that actually I still liked it.

in regards to the op, yes.

and modern hip hop would like to me think so ...

so why did this take 15 pages?

what do you expect I mean it really is a case of being informed, if you're only familiar with golden era hiphop legends or the last 5 years of current rapmusic that you hear on your radio then what's there to discuss.
the same people probably think the glith mob is hiphop and that prefuse73 is electro or somethin., have you ever heard of blue/exile, have you ever heard of ras g, what about crayz walls, do you listen to percee p, yeah he's a legend too but an all era one. the reason these hiphop threads are always so long is cause they're always full of alot of hate and they're always full of people who don't even like hiphop stuck for some reason in a hiphop thread or in some incredible cases even the thread is started by someone who doesn't like the music, sometimes if not most of the time I get very tired of these threads but then sometime I think maybe they are good because they never are really about the merrits of the artform I mean how can a group of people who know nothing about a topic discuss the merrits of that topic, so really the threads end up being about something else like race relations between black and white people and to be honest it's kind of a good thing. their is no real dialogue on the subject, cnn keeps doing specials on black people in america thinking that thats dialogue but it's more of exploitation

so this thread is probably the closest thread on this forum actualy titled closely to the truth of what it's all about, thumbs up to beatsme for that no matter what he thinks of the music or his neighbors.

leisuremuffin wrote:i don't expect the average person to care about music and its history.


I do, however, expect musicians to do so.



i especially expect electronic musicians to have respect and understanding of all of the roots of our music. Hip hop IS electronic music.





.lm.

If you're willing to share (and in all seriousness and harmony) i'd like to know your background that made you as knowledgeable as you are on the subject. My background is rather simple and nothing exuberant, I have played guitar since I was 15 (almost 25 years) and tried for many years to get record deals and such in the 90's (with a few brushes of almost, but never the real deal).....Now washed up with 2 kids and a receding hairline

I discovered computer music and electronica rather late (late 90's......was shopping in tower records in Philly when I heard the first chemical bros. "exit planet dust," followed by the "propellerheads", and fell in love!) in my reality, and did not get fluent in production until around 2001-2. I am really a nobody, just a guy who wanted to emulate and create music based on the music that inspired me....I really have little historical reference regarding electronica, although genres like funk, disco and reggae have made me inquire a little more about the "roots". I don't know shit about rap or hip-hop except that I liked what I was exposed to in my passing phase (PE, NWA, Ice Cube, Cypress Hill, House Of Pain)......

While probably to be totally dissed and ridiculed, I have learned a tremendous amount of production knowledge from listening and studying Goa and psychedelic trance.....

I would classify my self as a full on Clark Griswalt or Wally as far as coolness goes, or fitting in to the "scene"....
Most people who know me, would trust their lives with me as they know I'll always come through, and that my word is my bond, and that matters of sociology, public safety, Nutrition and alternative health are secondary passions after music.....

starving student wrote:what do you expect I mean it really is a case of being informed, if you're only familiar with golden era hiphop legends or the last 5 years of current rapmusic that you hear on your radio then what's there to discuss.

Indeed... I introduce Lil wayne listeners to Edan and Percee P and they imediately assume it's old school. Even Aesop Rock or any dope underground shit they think it's old school. They think Lil Wayne is inovative and cutting edge because he has "rock" songs.

funknotik wrote:

starving student wrote:what do you expect I mean it really is a case of being informed, if you're only familiar with golden era hiphop legends or the last 5 years of current rapmusic that you hear on your radio then what's there to discuss.

Indeed... I introduce Lil wayne listeners to Edan and Percee P and they imediately assume it's old school. Even Aesop Rock or any dope underground shit they think it's old school. They think Lil Wayne is inovative and cutting edge because he has "rock" songs.

I know Percee and Edan personally, and I have to agree with your listeners. Edan intentionally brings an old school flavor into his sound and Percee has stayed true to his unmistakeable flow since the 90's.

As for Aes, he definitely does his thing.

As for Lil Wheezy, I have nothing against him - but I saw the video for that "rock" song...it's cool he is doing rock, it's just a shame that song is so excruciating it's unlistenable.

@ Starving Student - my only comment in this thread. Cynicism free too

aisling wrote: I would classify my self as a full on Clark Griswalt or Wally as far as coolness goes, or fitting in to the "scene"....
Most people who know me, would trust their lives with me as they know I'll always come through, and that my word is my bond, and that matters of sociology, public safety, Nutrition and alternative health are secondary passions after music.....

The thing thats always attracted me to "Dance Music" (lets keep it wide open here) is I've never associated a style or dress code with it so even Clark Griswalt is welcome to shake his ass on my dancefloor even if he doesn't feel he's fitting into the "scene". I think this is part of the reason I stopped paying much attention to Rap/Hip Hop becasue in the mid 90's there was a commercial boom and it was as much about image as music.

I used to love the skills of the old skool turntablists making a new jam from the beat of one record with overlays of another but it would appear this is a sadly dying artform!!

YO WHUT DA FUK BITCH
GIT ON DIS DIK BITCH
I SED YO YO YAYAYOYO BEEEEEEEEEEEEEITCH

SLANGIN CRAK KOKANE
ALL DAY GETTIN BRAIN
MY SHITS HOT LYKE PROPANE

DROPPIN BEETZ LYKE MY TESTES
HOT N SWEATY N SO FRESH SEE
I GOTS ALL DA LUCHINI
AN YUR HOES BIKINI

PEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

IMHO anything related to hip-hop is shady and should be outlawed, especially making it and/or playing it in public - its a disease that is ruining good clubs the world over!

aisling wrote:

leisuremuffin wrote:i don't expect the average person to care about music and its history.


I do, however, expect musicians to do so.



i especially expect electronic musicians to have respect and understanding of all of the roots of our music. Hip hop IS electronic music.





.lm.

If you're willing to share (and in all seriousness and harmony) i'd like to know your background that made you as knowledgeable as you are on the subject. My background is rather simple and nothing exuberant, I have played guitar since I was 15 (almost 25 years) and tried for many years to get record deals and such in the 90's (with a few brushes of almost, but never the real deal).....Now washed up with 2 kids and a receding hairline

I discovered computer music and electronica rather late (late 90's......was shopping in tower records in Philly when I heard the first chemical bros. "exit planet dust," followed by the "propellerheads", and fell in love!) in my reality, and did not get fluent in production until around 2001-2. I am really a nobody, just a guy who wanted to emulate and create music based on the music that inspired me....I really have little historical reference regarding electronica, although genres like funk, disco and reggae have made me inquire a little more about the "roots". I don't know shit about rap or hip-hop except that I liked what I was exposed to in my passing phase (PE, NWA, Ice Cube, Cypress Hill, House Of Pain)......

While probably to be totally dissed and ridiculed, I have learned a tremendous amount of production knowledge from listening and studying Goa and psychedelic trance.....

I would classify my self as a full on Clark Griswalt or Wally as far as coolness goes, or fitting in to the "scene"....
Most people who know me, would trust their lives with me as they know I'll always come through, and that my word is my bond, and that matters of sociology, public safety, Nutrition and alternative health are secondary passions after music.....

Hey, that's all fine. I'm not about cool. i've never been cool, just really into music.


my background isn't any big deal. I just love music. I worked at and later managed record stores for most of my life. I worked as an on air DJ at one of the largest college radio stations in the US for a few years, even though i was never a student at the college. I studied electronic music and audio engineering completely self directed but under several really great mentors. I've performed as an electronic musician for, jesus, 14 years now? I was making it for a few years before that. Also, band geek in high school and guitar, keys, accordion, bang on pots and pans, sing. All this stuff I did on my own. Dropped out of college because all i wanted to do was electronic music, and the academic electronic music world did not offer the skills to do the kind of stuff i was interested in. I guess i did an ok job of learning on my own, because i was teaching electronic music and audio engineering in a trade school in nyc for a few years.

why do i know anything about hip hop? Well, because when you love all music, and spend most of your life in record stores you tend to hear a record or two. I also like to engage people that know more than me and try to learn form them. Was lucky enough to get friendly with the guys who did the underground hip hop show on the radio station i worked at during the last golden age of underground stuff in the late 90's. those guys played a lot of great records for me. There are shitloads of people who know more than i do about hip hop, but i know a great deal about the 80's electro hip hop stuff, i doubt there are many that know more than me about that chapter. And i'm familiar with and listen to a great range of hip hop all the way up to the present. As an electronic musician, how can i not listen to Rick Rock's production for Federation and have my mind blown? What about Timbaland who everyone likes to hate on, incredible electronic music. Kanye, he's kind of a dick, and his mc skills aren't the greatest ever, but his production? That's some sick shit. how about the innovative productions of El-P from company flow, that shit sure influenced me, and i can hear that it influenced a lot of other cats too. How about MFDOOM? Totally lo-fi production, but amazing. Proof that you can still blow minds just by flipping a sample the right way. and if i keep going further back, there's literally a book's worth of shit that i've heard and has inspired me and legions of others.



and yet, here we are, asking if one of the most influential and popular forms of electronic music is equated with shady activity. Even worse, we have to endure the musings of the completely uninformed on the subject.


does everyone who listens to techno pop e pills every weekend?
i listened to orbital in 95, but after that it all started to sound the same.


does everyone who listens to black metal worship satan?
i heard burzum once, i thought it was pretty dumb.

Are all house music fans gay?
It sure seemed like it after i went to that one party.





you sound like an interesting guy, and i'm sure you're very well intentioned. I just don't like to hear people talking shit about hip hop when they don't listen to enough to have the right to do so. And really that goes for any genre.



.lm.


edit: here's a great example of what hip hop is about.

whodini's friends
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4NkyWXfofM

MFDOOM's deep fried frenz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HH_rnOfmHMQ


Do you see how MFDOOM's flip of the sample and MCing on this track aren't really all that interesting unless you know the original? then it becomes really super deep. also, the sample collage at the end really shows off his skills as a producer. y'know, his tracks are just sample flips, but those collages are pretty intense. this one isn't even close to the most intricate stuff he's done.



also, for a more subtle flip of the whodini track, check out Nas- if i ruled the world. just the synth arpeggio....

leisuremuffin wrote:[ I worked at and later managed record stores for most of my life. I worked as an on air DJ at one of the largest college radio stations in the US for a few years......

why do i know anything about hip hop? Well, because when you love all music, and spend most of your life in record stores you tend to hear a record or two. I also like to engage people that know more than me and try to learn form them. Was lucky enough to get friendly with the guys who did the underground hip hop show on the radio station i worked at during the last golden age of underground stuff in the late 90's. those guys played a lot of great records for me.



you sound like an interesting guy, and i'm sure you're very well intentioned. I just don't like to hear people talking shit about hip hop when they don't listen to enough to have the right to do so. And really that goes for any genre.



.lm.

Yes, I can see clearly (seriously) that you have had some very enriching experiences that would have made you quite knowledgeable on the subject.....

I see where the confusion arose.....I actually thought the thread was more "sociological" than musical (pertaining to hip hop), which is why I got involved. Had it been about hip-hop "music," I would have kept my ignorant mouth shut. Since I thought it was a sociological thread, I had an interest to participate......It is amazing how easily misunderstandings can escalate into full blown animosity....

you still don't get it.


lets say the thread title was:

Do you associate 1960's rock music with aging dope smoking burnouts?

and there were posts like this:

Yeah, man, i listened to Jimi Hendrix and thought that was pretty cool, but after that a lot of that stuff just sounds the same to me. And it does seem like a lot of those people listening to it are way too old to still be smoking pot everyday and working as janitors.



does that seem ok to you? or does it seem ignorant and really obnoxious?




.lm.

and before you say that i don't know anything about rock, i also like the beatles and led zeppelin. see, i'm well informed.


anyway, the way i deal with aging rockers when i encounter them is to make sure i keep my stash locked up in a hollowed out bar of deodorant. Those guys never use that stuff.

.lm.

leisuremuffin wrote:and before you say that i don't know anything about rock, i also like the beatles and led zeppelin. see, i'm well informed.


anyway, the way i deal with aging rockers when i encounter them is to make sure i keep my stash locked up in a hollowed out bar of deodorant. Those guys never use that stuff.

.lm.

I have no judgement on your knowledge of rock at all.....
The beatles, rolling stones and the San Francisco music scene (the records my parents had as a kid) are what got me into music........Followed by pink floyd, AC-DC, Led Zeppelin and Rush as a pre-teen....and then it just kept expanding from there.....

I have had to give the stuff up, After so many years of indulgence, I realized I don't get "high" (in the sacred sense) anymore.......I get a burst of an adrenaline rush followed by being hungry, tired, lethargic, and slightly irritable and or paranoid....

leisuremuffin wrote:you still don't get it.


lets say the thread title was:

Do you associate 1960's rock music with aging dope smoking burnouts?

and there were posts like this:

Yeah, man, i listened to Jimi Hendrix and thought that was pretty cool, but after that a lot of that stuff just sounds the same to me. And it does seem like a lot of those people listening to it are way too old to still be smoking pot everyday and working as janitors.



does that seem ok to you? or does it seem ignorant and really obnoxious?




.lm.

It depends....I have a very wide (dark and sarcastic) sense of humor and could take it into consideration on many different levels.....