israel attacks gaza bound aid flotilla.

[LoopStationZebra]

dum, pardon me but I cannot recall exactly:

What is your desired end game for Israel? Dissolvement? Exiting occupied Gaza, West Bank, etc?

[smutek]

You seem like a nice guy but you're looking fairly ridiculous in this thread.

No offense.

[LoopStationZebra]

^How so?

[smutek]

This is a music forum, why on earth would you pick it to continuously spout your political agenda is beyond me.

Dude, it's "the Lounge", it was set up specifically as an off topic forum so why not cease with that shit or go post in the audio production forum if that's what you want?

Jesus man. I don't know shit about you but what I'm reading from you in this thread is that you have a complex over religion and you also have some sort of hard on to fuck with dum; and that hard on is driving you to post page after page of responses trying to better the man when he is clearly more well versed on this issue than you are. not to mention he cares more about the issue than you ever will. You don't seem to give 2 shits about it to be honest.

It's painfully obvious that you have an agenda and you are indeed coming off as an asshole.

[djsynchro]

Dude, it's "the Lounge"

this

[smutek]

^ that

[3dot...]

it just don't work.

[djsynchro]

On a light note: It would be funny if someone opened a bank (a building to put money in so it's safe) in the West Bank and call it the "West Bank Bank".
And if someone opened a titty bar in Gaza they could call the girls "Gaza Strippers".
If I come up with something else I'll let you know.
It just works.
This.

[3dot...]

[UKRuss]

Jesus man. I don't know shit about you

This

[UKRuss]

you have a complex over religion

Another godsquadder eh?

[Machinesworking]

about the Palestinian people :
I feel for their pain.. they are used over and over again by their so-called brothers.. (Arab Islam)
and are caught in the middle.. they are without a doubt the true sufferers of this false conflict

when religious fundamentalism=power over people...
it's pretty easy to find benefactors to pay for a war

our whole claim to this land is about our history..there is no other place we can claim to build a country..
it is a sad situation.. but the act to return to this place from all around the world (political Zionism) ..
was a pretty natural one.. considering how the Jewish minorities were treated all over the globe..
but never have I heard calls to kill in the name of god..(at least not from our side)
or calls to conquer more lands..in order to control other people
war has always been in the name of survival in a hostile area..

The trouble starts when you conveniently forget that there were people living in Israel previous to the exodus from Europe.
Democracy works if you have people all of the same mind and ethnic group, if you have mass migration of a certain group into an area
immediately making the current indigenous people the minority, it's going to cause problems. That, has never been addressed without it getting back to
"1000 years ago we came from here." and "They kicked us out" , "The UN OK'd it" etc. of course ignoring usury laws, and the mass begging of jewish families to move to Europe to take over the banking industry... it wasn't all about war, lots of people migrated to better themselves, especially seeing as how there were opportunities to pretty much become the highest peasant class you could in europe rather than trying to till dusty soil etc. (of course this led to pograms whenever the king wanted to deflect blame for his economic disasters, but that's another tangent).

Point is in the end Israel doesn't care about the palestinians. Not individual israeli people, but Israel as a country and political force. They basically care that the people vote for the wrong organizations, (Hamas), and continue to demand through sanctions a more pro israeli government. Of course the palestinians cannot demand the same thing of Israel, so you are free to vote in as fanatical of a zionist as you want to... just saying, I can see how if I was a palestinian I would be upset. I might not like Hamas, but I might think where's the equality in rights here?

AFA muslims building temples on your temples.... When was that 1000, or 2000 years ago, I forget?
Seriously, if it's not within the last 100 years any righteous community could and should let it the fuck go.
That people continue to fight wars over slights on a historical level rather than current event level, that people
can't see said area as a historical place to be revered and learned from now by both sides is a tragedy IMO of far too much
dependance on ethnic pride for a sense of self.

My take on the situation it would be this:
Israel was created without real regard to the rights of the people who were living there at the time.
At this point, Israel has a right to exist, it exists, therefore it has rights.
Israel has a duty to right the initial wrong, (the making of a minority out of the indigenous people) which is still an issue IMO.
Israel has the upper hand, through sheer firepower and economic superiority over the territories, therefore it has the responsibility
to be the 'better man' to act of higher ideals than the enemy. Which means IMO taking into account the rights of the people who
you have "trouble" with, over hitting back to every rock thrown with a bullet.

It was pretty dammed cool to see some settlers ousted a few years back, I would love to see a return to communication.
Reagan was a shitty president, but at least Gorbachev was willing to overlook that to negotiate. Maybe Israel could learn from that.

[3dot...]

My take on the situation it would be this:
Israel was created without real regard to the rights of the people who were living there at the time.
At this point, Israel has a right to exist, it exists, therefore it has rights.
Israel has a duty to right the initial wrong, (the making of a minority out of the indigenous people) which is still an issue IMO.
Israel has the upper hand, through sheer firepower and economic superiority over the territories, therefore it has the responsibility
to be the 'better man' to act of higher ideals than the enemy. Which means IMO taking into account the rights of the people who
you have "trouble" with, over hitting back to every rock thrown with a bullet.

It was pretty dammed cool to see some settlers ousted a few years back, I would love to see a return to communication.
Reagan was a shitty president, but at least Gorbachev was willing to overlook that to negotiate. Maybe Israel could learn from that.

...agreed !
but.. the problem is getting there.
step 1...you need two sides to sign an agreement on paper
step 2...you need both sides to show restraint.. and respect said agreement

^^^looks kind of easy don't it ?

[Machinesworking]

but.. the problem is getting there.
step 1...you need two sides to sign an agreement on paper
step 2...you need both sides to show restraint.. and respect said agreement

^^^looks kind of easy don't it ?

Not to me, looks really hard, but worth it.
There are a lot of people on both sides in positions of power that would not benefit from real long lasting peace.

I don't want to get into speculation too much as it's not productive, but in this case it's good to keep in mind.
The west has never been that fond of democracy for nations with some natural resource we want to exploit.
Saudi Arabia for instance is more of a US ally than Turkey, which is obviously an economic choice rather than one based on politics.
I'm not convinced that the west in general wants turkish style reforms in the middle east, it's easier to do business with a monarchy than a
democratic state, one person to set prices etc. So trouble isn't just a matter of muslim states VS jewish, it's deeper. IMO Israeli people are being used in a chess game for global oil domination and price fixing, at the cost of regional stability.
On one hand you have China and Russia dealing with Iran and not wanting trouble with their supply there, and on the other you have Saudi Arabia (and the mess in Iraq) for the US etc. To me anyway, both awful governments, just terrible, even by middle east standards. That, is where IMO the rest of the world fails along with Israel. The US talks mass garbage about Iran, yet sucks up to Saudi Arabia.... bleh!

[smutek]

you have a complex over religion

Another godsquadder eh?

I don't even know what that is.

I'm definitely not a religious type dude, if that's what you're getting at.

I'd be happy to share my own views, and learn about the views of others, on religion and spirituality in another thread if you or anyone else ever feels like having a respectful discussion about it though.