(OT) WTC Buildings.

[deva]

what ramifications? building seven exploded? And that means what? A conspiracy? Prove it.

You can't. Because there is no proof.

Building 7 did not explode, it imploded. It imploded in exactly the fashion that only a controlled demolition can duplicate. The owner stated it was pulled.

It would not have been possible to wire the building that day. Therefore, the building was wired prior. Why and how? Are all modern skyscrapers wired with explosives ready at a moments notice to demolish the building?

Assume for just a second that it was indeed imploded, which all scientific and visual evidence points to, as well as the recorded statement of the owner. What then are the ramifications of that? Please give any plausible scenario for having building 7 wired to be demolished before that day.

[robtronik]

serously deva, you state things like:

1) the u.s. government permitted 9/11 to happen to further its agenda as fact
2) that under no circumstance can a building fall on its own imprint fact
3) that the U.S. is the greatest danger to civil life on the planet as fact
4) that the Bush administration has willfully lied to lead the nation into war as fact
5) That the people and governments of Afghanistan and Iraq were better off before their leadership was overthrown as fact
6) that science refultes the claims of other scientists that support the commonly held beliefs of what happened on 9//11 as fact

etc. etc.

and then you wonder why I suspect you are off the deep end when none of the above can be substantiated in any way that is regarded as fact except by you who are predisposed to thinking they are fact.

Before you, and others, start saying that those of us who disagree with your premise as close minded or not willing to be reasonable, why don't you present us with FINDINGS and CORROOBORATION and FACT that support the theories behind 9/11 so then we can truly weigh the evidence.

Right now all that has been forwarded are questions and observations but no findings, fact, or coroboration to support the claims otherwise.

I'd like to think that rational people in this scenario that aren't so blinded by their hatred of Bush, american policy and principles, could accept that those of us who are relying on fact until otherwise proven wrong are not so crazy.

So, in the end, I'm not calling you crazy, I'm just saying put up the evidence. Put up or shut up, as it were (not you personally, you know what I'm saying).

Facts are facts. We've got most all of those that support what happened that day. Now its the conspiracy theorists turn to provide facts. Who did it, how, and when was it put together? In order for us "sheep" to turn from what we understand happened, we need counter facts that are corroborated, proven, and verifiable.

None of that exists. Only questions.... so, we continue to believe what has been proven to date. We were attacked by hijackers who later claimed responsibility by Al Q. and the buildings fell because they were hit by planes. There was collateral damage (other buildings) and the U.S. decided to remove states that sponsor terrorism - first down, Taliban. They were warned and didn't comply. Etc etc.

.02 and all that,

rob.

[deva]

Hey, here is a thought that ties into what I said earlier - maybe the terrorists wired the building to blow up so it would coincide with the plane crashing. That's a lot more plausable than having our government plant the bombs and then keep it a secret like they can keep the secrets of wiretappings, FBI agent identities, secret prisons abroad, etc.

rob.

Then why would the government cover up that the 'terrorists' wired the building and destroyed it? Especially since those people would then still be at large.

I think that makes no sense for the government to do.


Also, you talk as if it is insane for the government to allow 9/11 to happen. It is now historical fact that Roosevelt knew and let Pearl Harbor happen as an excuse to galvanize the country into war. Numerous sources reveal that, including Winston Churchill who bluntly said so.

There is also Operation Northwoods. A plan by the U.S. government to stage a number of false flag operations, including the sinking of a Navy ship with Navy crew on board, and the shooting down of an empty jetliner and say it was full of vacationing college students. These actions would have been blamed on Cubans as a means to turn public sentiment towards military actions.

Sounds quite familiar.

If someone had said the government could do those things at that time, many people would have said they were conspiracy theorists, which of course is just a derogatory term to marginalize unpopular trains of thought. History revealed otherwise, as it will here too.

[robtronik]

Read this for Building 7. Lots of counter evidence to the idea that it was a conspriacy and controlled demolition.

http://www.debunking911.com/pull.htm

its a start. In fact, its pretty thorough site. You would do well to read a lot the material and ponder on your probability that there was a government conspiracy behind the attacks based on your assumptions that things are not explainable.

rob.

[robtronik]

Hey, here is a thought that ties into what I said earlier - maybe the terrorists wired the building to blow up so it would coincide with the plane crashing. That's a lot more plausable than having our government plant the bombs and then keep it a secret like they can keep the secrets of wiretappings, FBI agent identities, secret prisons abroad, etc.

rob.

Then why would the government cover up that the 'terrorists' wired the building and destroyed it? Especially since those people would then still be at large.

I think that makes no sense for the government to do.


Also, you talk as if it is insane for the government to allow 9/11 to happen. It is now historical fact that Roosevelt knew and let Pearl Harbor happen as an excuse to galvanize the country into war. Numerous sources reveal that, including Winston Churchill who bluntly said so.

There is also Operation Northwoods. A plan by the U.S. government to stage a number of false flag operations, including the sinking of a Navy ship with Navy crew on board, and the shooting down of an empty jetliner and say it was full of vacationing college students. These actions would have been blamed on Cubans as a means to turn public sentiment towards military actions.

Sounds quite familiar.

If someone had said the government could do those things at that time, many people would have said they were conspiracy theorists, which of course is just a derogatory term to marginalize unpopular trains of thought. History revealed otherwise, as it will here too.

of course all conjecture, and nothing provided towards factual representation of evidence to prove your theories of conspiracy.

Roosevelt let pearl harbor happen. Think about this for a second and consider, if true, whether it matters or not.

He didn't tell the japanese to attack us, so either way, we were going to war because they were intent on attacking the U.S. anyway - SO.... immaterial to the outcome and not a good example given your POV and stance on this current issue (if even remotely true).

rob.

[deva]

serously deva, you state things like:

1) the u.s. government permitted 9/11 to happen to further its agenda as fact

I've said that is what I believe and there is no proof in terms you would accept. I think there is enough evidence to use that as the working theory

2) that under no circumstance can a building fall on its own imprint fact

yes, that is a fact of engineering.

3) that the U.S. is the greatest danger to civil life on the planet as fact

I stated numerous reason why I conclude that. You have not refuted them, but rather try to tell me I am off the deep end as some sort of refutation.

4) that the Bush administration has willfully lied to lead the nation into war as fact

Yes, I would say that is a fact. The alleged yellow cake incident in Niger was shown false before Colin Powell went with it to the United Nations. And I think the preponderance of evidence is such that only willful ignorance can explain the level of falsehood presented to the US citizens. Nobody could make that many mistakes in a row and have them actually be mistakes. A sincere person, making a mistake, would be doubly sure next time, when so much depended upon it. Especially since dozens of independent news sites seemed to have the factual information well beforehand. along with millions of people.

5) That the people and governments of Afghanistan and Iraq were better off before their leadership was overthrown as fact

Lets see... Afghanistan and Iraq

In 2003 scientists from the Uranium Medical Research Center (UMRC) studied urine samples of Afghan civilians and found that 100% of the samples taken had levels of non-depleted uranium (NDU) 400% to 2000% higher than normal levels. The UMRC research team studied six sites, two in Kabul and others in the Jalalabad area. The civilians were tested four months after the attacks in Afghanistan by the United States and its allies.

NDU is more radioactive than depleted uranium (DU), which itself is charged with causing many cancers and severe birth defects in the Iraqi population–especially children–over the past ten years. Four million pounds of radioactive uranium was dropped on Iraq in 2003 alone.

Uranium dust will be in the bodies of our returning armed forces. Nine soldiers from the 442nd Military Police serving in Iraq were tested for DU contamination in December 2003. Conducted at the request of The News, as the U.S. government considers the cost of $1,000 per affected soldier prohibitive, the test found that four of the nine men were contaminated with high levels of DU, likely caused by inhaling dust from depleted uranium shells fired by U.S. troops. Several of the men had traces of another uranium isotope, U-236, that are produced only in a nuclear reaction process.

At the Uranium Weapons Conference held October 2003 in Hamburg, Germany, independent scientists from around the world testified to a huge increase in birth deformities and cancers wherever NDU and DU had been used. Professor Katsuma Yagasaki, a scientist at the Ryukyus University, Okinawa calculated that the 800 tons of DU used in Afghanistan is the radioactive equivalent of 83,000 Nagasaki bombs. The amount of DU used in Iraq is equivalent to 250,000 Nagasaki bombs.

At the Uranium Weapons Conference, a demonstration by British-trained oncologist Dr. Jawad Al-Ali showed photographs of the kinds of birth deformities and tumors he had observed at the Saddam Teaching Hospital in Basra just before the 2003 war. Cancer rates had increased dramatically over the previous fifteen years. In 1989 there were 11 abnormalities per 100,000 births; in 2001 there were 116 per 100,000—an increase of over a thousand percent. In 1989 34 people died of cancer; in 2001 there were 603 cancer deaths. The 2003 war has increased these figures exponentially.

Moret concludes, "In Iraq it is even worse where babies are born without brains, organs are outside the body, or women give birth to pieces of flesh. In babies born in Iraq in 2002, the incidence of anophthalmos was 250,000 times greater (20 cases in 4,000 births) than the natural occurrence, one in 50 million births. Takashi MORIZUMI's photos: in http://www.savewarchildren.org/ record the tragedy in Iraq."


Right there is enough to show the the U.S. has perpetrated one of the greatest crimes against humanity in history. The people of Afghanistan and Iraq will be facing horrific suffering for generations to come. We have made a hell on earth for those people.

Besides the radioactive poisoning and accompanying degradation of the dna, Afghanistan sucked before and it sucks today. By a few measures, some areas are safer, others are more dangerous. The US forces there have lost control, and the Taliban is again controlling some portions of the nation with a number of warlords controlling others

Iraq of course is worse off by any measure. Their infrastructure is destroyed, water food and electricity is scarce. approx 150 Iraqi civilians are currently dying each day. approx 200,000 Iraqi civilians are dead since 2003. Read the blogs from people in Iraq. They have never felt the level of fear, despair and social disintegration that is happening now. It is a nation in ruin.

6) that science refultes the claims of other scientists that support the commonly held beliefs of what happened on 9//11 as fact

it does. One of the planes hitting the towers, hit at an angle and there was a huge fireball. That was much of the fuel burning outside the building. Not long after, the fires in the building were creating huge billows of smoke. That means the fire was oxygen deprived and thus burning at a much lower temperature. Even if not oxygen deprived, jet fuel, which is basically kerosene, does not burn hot enough to melt steel. An oxygen deprived fire could burn for 48 hours and not appreciably weaken the steel structure. Indeed in past cases of severe fire in tall buildings, no building has ever collapsed anywhere in the world, ever, before that day. This though there are cases where fires burned out of control for 20+ hours.

It is career suicide to question these things. Very few scientists would want to go anywhere near such discussion, but as a few brave ones dare to, more are starting to ask questions.

Dozens of firefighters made statements reffering to explosions, heard or seen, lower in the building, and timed in rapid succession, exactly matching the description of a controlled demolition. hmmm[/b]

[glitchrock-buddha]

A conspiracy? Prove it.

You can't. Because there is no proof. Only speculation. And one can speculate on all kinds of things - this, that, and the other thing... all signifying that you don't know. And if this is where the proof of the conspiracy lies, then why crash two planes into two different buildings and then blow up the third to make it look like it was part of the initial destruction?

w/ regard to your needing the government to prove that it wasn't behind the plan, then by all means, demand all you want. I disagree that they are guilty before proven innocent.rob.

There are some serious holes in all your 'burden of proof' talk rob.
Firstly, it is very difficult for certain things to be proven when the FBI has confiscated many tapes, flight recorders, and destroyed all evidence from the crime scene. You can't say the burden of proof is up to people who cannot access evidence.
Second, the government never needed to prove it's innocence because it was never on trial, but if it is obviously covering something up by destroying evidence or with holding it, then the responsibility is on them to show why. Furthermore, it is their responsibility to make sure evidence is preserved in the first place to conduct a proper investigation. Don't you think it would be very suspect for the first police officer on a crime scene, or a judge for that matter, to destroy evidence and keep other stuff hidden, especially when motive can be clearly established?
And also, you say 'why crash two planes and destroy a third one to make it look like it was part of the initial destruction?'
Well it never really looked like it was part of the initial destruction. The explanation was underground fires lighting a fuel tank. This was Juliani's bunker, the FBI bunker in new York, and a bunch of other important stuff (FEMA possibly). Anyways, it also happened to be owned by Larry Silverstein. Now when there is pretty convincing evidence on tape and by eyewitnesses hearing explosions that its a pull, it is the governments responsibility to come up with a better expanation than one which is stated in the official report, to be extremely unlikely. It is their responsibility to consider more options than they did, especially the ones which make the most sense, and if they don't, then it sort of looks bad, wouldn't you say?

grb

[knotkranky]

Lets see... Afghanistan and Iraq

In 2003 scientists from the Uranium Medical Research Center (UMRC) studied urine samples of Afghan civilians and found that 100% of the samples taken had levels of non-depleted uranium (NDU) 400% to 2000% higher than normal levels. The UMRC research team studied six sites, two in Kabul and others in the Jalalabad area. The civilians were tested four months after the attacks in Afghanistan by the United States and its allies.

NDU is more radioactive than depleted uranium (DU), which itself is charged with causing many cancers and severe birth defects in the Iraqi population–especially children–over the past ten years. Four million pounds of radioactive uranium was dropped on Iraq in 2003 alone.

Uranium dust will be in the bodies of our returning armed forces. Nine soldiers from the 442nd Military Police serving in Iraq were tested for DU contamination in December 2003. Conducted at the request of The News, as the U.S. government considers the cost of $1,000 per affected soldier prohibitive, the test found that four of the nine men were contaminated with high levels of DU, likely caused by inhaling dust from depleted uranium shells fired by U.S. troops. Several of the men had traces of another uranium isotope, U-236, that are produced only in a nuclear reaction process.

At the Uranium Weapons Conference held October 2003 in Hamburg, Germany, independent scientists from around the world testified to a huge increase in birth deformities and cancers wherever NDU and DU had been used. Professor Katsuma Yagasaki, a scientist at the Ryukyus University, Okinawa calculated that the 800 tons of DU used in Afghanistan is the radioactive equivalent of 83,000 Nagasaki bombs. The amount of DU used in Iraq is equivalent to 250,000 Nagasaki bombs.

At the Uranium Weapons Conference, a demonstration by British-trained oncologist Dr. Jawad Al-Ali showed photographs of the kinds of birth deformities and tumors he had observed at the Saddam Teaching Hospital in Basra just before the 2003 war. Cancer rates had increased dramatically over the previous fifteen years. In 1989 there were 11 abnormalities per 100,000 births; in 2001 there were 116 per 100,000—an increase of over a thousand percent. In 1989 34 people died of cancer; in 2001 there were 603 cancer deaths. The 2003 war has increased these figures exponentially.

Moret concludes, "In Iraq it is even worse where babies are born without brains, organs are outside the body, or women give birth to pieces of flesh. In babies born in Iraq in 2002, the incidence of anophthalmos was 250,000 times greater (20 cases in 4,000 births) than the natural occurrence, one in 50 million births. Takashi MORIZUMI's photos: in http://www.savewarchildren.org/ record the tragedy in Iraq."


Right there is enough to show the the U.S. has perpetrated one of the greatest crimes against humanity in history. The people of Afghanistan and Iraq will be facing horrific suffering for generations to come. We have made a hell on earth for those people.

Besides the radioactive poisoning and accompanying degradation of the dna, Afghanistan sucked before and it sucks today. By a few measures, some areas are safer, others are more dangerous. The US forces there have lost control, and the Taliban is again controlling some portions of the nation with a number of warlords controlling others

Iraq of course is worse off by any measure. Their infrastructure is destroyed, water food and electricity is scarce. approx 150 Iraqi civilians are currently dying each day. approx 200,000 Iraqi civilians are dead since 2003. Read the blogs from people in Iraq. They have never felt the level of fear, despair and social disintegration that is happening now. It is a nation in ruin.
]

Thank you for the enlightening uranium info deva. Maddening.

[mikemc]

for the conspiracy buffs, this is interesting. the remote control planes thing is an extravagant and silly red herring, just replace that with 'hijacking/attacks were known to be happening by the inside conspirators'.

http://www.saunalahti.fi/wtc2001/military.htm

(and this is now really all for this thread for me )

[Gyu]

I just want to thank you all for this enlightening thread. Massive respect to Deva in particular, and to Robotonik for sparking his replies.(although he conveniently ignores most of Devas points)

[err_eur]

what can you do???????

[sense]

The irony here , is that this is exactly what 911 was designed to do , it was entirely designed to take advantage of people who would discuss and theorise about how this could have happened.

And while everyone sits and wonders if this is conspiracy or if this is really a view to the future as we'll know it .. All these steps are put into place , which follow the ideaology of THE NEW AMERICAN CENTURY.

WAR on terrorism , is a war on everyone , since no one knows who or what a terrorist is ..

Fighting for ones own freedom or rights as people , is not wrong.. and in this example any of the terrorists that George Bush and the whitehouse have labeled, have every right to seek retribution on the USA and its allies ,call it karma , call it conspiracy call it whatever you like , after all it is your world thats being controlled by this mass of continuous discussion , thought , and confusion..and its allways some other country thats being occupied/liberated , by the USA.

anyone interested should know , that the plan to take iran and north korea and all the things that are going on now and yet to come .. are allready planned out years ago .. and this is simply the implimentation of those plans.. that we're seeing every day ..

The USA has been constantly at war every year for at least the last 50 years.. with some country or other... none of this is new,strange or even unexpected..

The documentaries made by Alex Jones and the like , are really interested in giving back to Americans , thier own right to truth , as opposed to being spoonfed the politically manipulated constructed version , the government wants to give , in order to easily impliment its ideaologies of the PAXA Americana..

In any event tho , its going to happen, and is allready well on the way , the events that occur daily ,post 911 are simple micro reactions to the new resonance of the modern world , a world where supposedly , since 9/11/ "the world would never be the same again".

Could you ask for a better catchphrase..?

Btw , i dont think a bunch of fundamentalist-Muslim-AlQaeda-Saudi Arabians, really thought about americas emergency code ie 911 , in any significant way enough to stage an event based on that date , doesnt strike me as the way they would actually think.

Same as the London Bombings , and the supposed eating at mcdonalds by one of the bus bombers , before going to fullfill his jihadist duty , none of that kinda shit makes any kind of sense.

this is the document about the new american century , written in 2000

http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... fenses.pdf


I guess the strangest thing about all this is , it doesnt require any thinking at all , just an openess to the truth , and the posibility that maybe humans like G.W. Bush , and his mates arent all about peace love and mungbeans..

[djadonis206]

Could you paraphrase that into a South Park episode

It's the only way i stay current with current events.

I know Butter's birthday is September 11th - but he forever remains 8 years old. Odd.

And I think the Muslims put a Jihad on us after Family Guy aired that episode with the prophet muhammed.

I wonder what Matt and Trey will do next - but seriously you (Sense) should send that short essay to them - they could use that stuff

Adonis

[DeadlyKungFu]

Could you paraphrase that into a South Park episode

It's the only way i stay current with current events.

Stan: <reads paper> Dude, this part here is pretty fucked up.
Cartman: Screw you guys, I'm going home.

That's about all you need to know, another day, more bad news. I'm waiting for the Fox News ticker to say "Everything's fine, nothing to worry about, go outside and play."

[hoffman2k]

Could you paraphrase that into a South Park episode

It's the only way i stay current with current events.

Stan: <reads paper> Dude, this part here is pretty fucked up.
Cartman: Screw you guys, I'm going home.

That's about all you need to know, another day, more bad news. I'm waiting for the Fox News ticker to say "Everything's fine, nothing to worry about, go outside and play."

followed by a massive flood

Did anybody else notice that almost everything that is american satire becomes very successful?
Daily show is now aired in over 100 country's.
South park has been going on for 10 years. Offendig everybody from the pope to their own cast.
Hell, even desperate housewives is doing very good

How do i put this into a south park episode?
Hmmm....

There are 2 types of american as far as i can see.
The ones who live the american dream inside their little magic bubble (or foxhole )
And the ones who are going "what the hell is going on here?"
There may be a third type who doesn't give a rats ass though.

It's almost like the south park episode "I'm a little bit country....."
But instead of protesters, you have so-called conspiracy nutters