Ableton Forum

deva wrote:
The majority of Arab peoples do not want to 'drive every Jew into the sea'. Hezbollah does not claim that.

Hezbollah will say whatever the current audience wants to hear... They're all nice and cuddly to Western media, but they spit venom at Jews to other Arabs. You can't take anything they say seriously.

Hassan Nasrallah, to Muslim audiences wrote: "I am against any reconciliation with Israel."

"...if they [Jews] all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide."

"I believe that Palestine is an occupied land from the Mediterranean Sea to the Jordan River, and this is the right of the entire Palestinian people, this land... That is why if Lebanon concludes a peace agreement with Israel and brings that accord to the Parliament our deputies will reject it; Hezbollah refuses any conciliation with Israel in principle."
Hassan Nasrallah

So much for any sort of coexistance there, huh? That pretty much sums up his stance on any sort of two state solution. What a nice, peaceful guy (note sarcasm).

Hassan Nasrallah, to Western media wrote: "Force is the duty of the state, not Hizbullah."

"Hezbollah is a resistance movement that aims at liberating the occupied territories and is not a substitute for the government."

"On this land, Muslims, Christians and Jews can coexist together, as they have - as they had for the - for hundreds of years in the framework of a democratic state."
Hassan Nasrallah

Of course that democratic state wouldn't be Israel, now would it?

These assholes are master manipulators, they cannot be trusted.

deva wrote: I believe a 1 state solution is the only viable long term solution, but whatever the solution, it needs to happen. It may come down to that, or global war with everyone losing.

A single state solution can only exist if that single state is Israel.

Why must the single state be Israel?

...Because they have nuclear weapons and will not allow anything to end their existance as a national entity.

So, if the Israelis won't go for the dismantling of Israel (and can easily bake and radiate anybody who tries to do so), and if the Palestinians insist on a state of Palestine with a capital in East Jerusalem, then what's left?

THE TWO STATE SOLUTION. It's the only hope.

I think that the one state solution is an all or nothing approach that will be impossible to implement, as each side wants "one state, but MY state, not theirs".

stinky wrote:

deva wrote:
Oh please, drop that tired, unexamined propaganda. If Jewish control of the State of Israel can only be maintained by repression, then it has no more right to exist than Apartheid South Africa, and more importantly than some theoretical 'right' it cannot endure under those circumstances.

The State of Israel was created by Western powers and imposed upon the people that lived on the land. It must be recognized that this was unjust. The majority of Arab peoples do not want to 'drive every Jew into the sea'. Hezbollah does not claim that. The problem is with the government of Israel. It's expansionist tendencies, Zionist ideology, and treatment of Palestinians. Hamas and Hezbollah have just causes. You may not like tactical choices they make, but when the powers you favor use the same tactics, labeling one 'terrorist' is really just a way to marginalize.

Man, you are fucking blind as a bat.. Nasrallah has repeatedly said Israel should be destroyed.. so has Ahmenijad... wake the fuck up man...

yes, Israel as it is should end. What takes its place will be written in the future. What needs to be differentiated is a government from people. I think the current US government should end. Many people do. That does not mean they want to kill all the people in the country.

Sure there are Arab elements that hate Jews, but the more we adopt extremist langauage here, the more we push those people into power there. Out of fear and hatred we attack a secular iraq because it was a 'threat of Islamic Fundamentalism' and now we have made it into more of a theocratic country. Eventually it will resemble the thing we fear.

did you not read any of the rest of deva's post? or did you just think that one point was easy to argue with so you went for that?! Very Happy

no, i just don't have time to get embroiled in this back and forth... i've made my points in the previous Lebanon thread several weeks back when this whole thing started, and i don't feel like repeating myself..

deva wrote:
yes, Israel as it is should end. What takes its place will be written in the future. What needs to be differentiated is a government from people. I think the current US government should end. Many people do. That does not mean they want to kill all the people in the country.

Sure there are Arab elements that hate Jews, but the more we adopt extremist langauage here, the more we push those people into power there. Out of fear and hatred we attack a secular iraq because it was a 'threat of Islamic Fundamentalism' and now we have made it into more of a theocratic country. Eventually it will resemble the thing we fear.

sorry, you're completely unrealistic and living in a dream world... put down the crack pipe, and get some therapy... if you actually think the world would be better without the US and Israel completely, then you've got another thing coming... i'm a left-leaning liberal, but you're just plain crazy, and suicidal.. The better way is to struggle for social change, like the african americans in the 60's, woman's suffrage, etc, etc... these are the way to move forward, not leveling an established entity and beginning from the ground up.. that would take the entire world into a dark age, much like the previous one... revolutions happen all the time, they happen quietly, and most of the time, people don't realize it's occuring until the world (local, or global) is embroiled in it.. But, what you're talking about is just as crazy as asking for WWIII.. it would cause mass social upheaval, starvation in large parts of the world (on a much larger scale than anything seen yet) and more mini wars than have ever occured.. I hate the US government as much as the next guy, but it's the stabilizing force in the world, and without it, we'd all be lost for some time to come...

that's the truth of the matter...

subterFUSE wrote:This isn't a land dispute to him, but an all out war where the only solution is genocide.

This is political propaganda. It plays on the inherent racism towards Arabs in the western mind and seeks to foster that racism into blind hatred. That is how the western citizens are themselves being turned towards fascism.

The western military machine must have a great enemy to justify its own control and lust for power. It is most convenient if we make the people who live where the oil is the great enemy. It is a lie.

And if fundamentalist Islam is the great enemy, then why the hell did the U.S. attack Iraq which was a secular nation in conflict with fundamentalist Islam?

No, we are fabricating the enemy to use as the excuse for our own aims.

But of course when Arabs say they have no WMD's they must be lying. Of course it turned out that Iraq was telling the truth, but we don't want to hear that. After all they are Arabs and we all know they are liars, and terrorists and cannot be trusted.

I am very disappointed by the verbatim jingoistic language I hear many of my fellow citizens regurgitating.

I have read a number of independently translated talks by the vilified Arab leaders and what you hear in the corporate media and what those independent translations say comes across very differently. Yes there is some extreme political posturing, from various sides. If you want to buy my car worth $5000 and offer $3000, I will come back with $7000.

Israel says it wants to destroy Hezbollah and bluntly says it will continue to try and assassinate Nasrallah during the cease-fire. But of course that is okay.

The double standard is glaring.

Meanwhile, the U.S. position is doing nothing but make things worse. I do believe the Bush adminstration is desparate for a wider war because it is in that context that it can potentially sieze greater power.

stinky wrote:

deva wrote:
yes, Israel as it is should end. What takes its place will be written in the future. What needs to be differentiated is a government from people. I think the current US government should end. Many people do. That does not mean they want to kill all the people in the country.

Sure there are Arab elements that hate Jews, but the more we adopt extremist langauage here, the more we push those people into power there. Out of fear and hatred we attack a secular iraq because it was a 'threat of Islamic Fundamentalism' and now we have made it into more of a theocratic country. Eventually it will resemble the thing we fear.

sorry, you're completely unrealistic and living in a dream world... put down the crack pipe, and get some therapy... if you actually think the world would be better without the US and Israel completely, then you've got another thing coming... i'm a left-leaning liberal, but you're just plain crazy, and suicidal.. The better way is to struggle for social change, like the african americans in the 60's, woman's suffrage, etc, etc... these are the way to move forward, not leveling an established entity and beginning from the ground up.. that would take the entire world into a dark age, much like the previous one... revolutions happen all the time, they happen quietly, and most of the time, people don't realize it's occuring until the world (local, or global) is embroiled in it.. But, what you're talking about is just as crazy as asking for WWIII.. it would cause mass social upheaval, starvation in large parts of the world (on a much larger scale than anything seen yet) and more mini wars than have ever occured.. I hate the US government as much as the next guy, but it's the stabilizing force in the world, and without it, we'd all be lost for some time to come...

that's the truth of the matter...

I made no statement advocating an abrupt end, neither in Israel, nor here in the U.S. That is your assumption, and it is incorrect.

Venezuela is an example of a positive revolution in the making. I believe they are setting the example for the world to follow. The U.S. on the otherhand, is going in the opposite direction.

It was President Kennedy who said "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."

oh, and regarding Venezuela, the U.S. is working hard to oppose the blooming of a real participatory democracy there. The CIA recently created a special mission to focus on Venezuela. The only other 2 such missions that exist specific to countries are for Iran and North Korea. The CIA also listed Venezuela in the top 5 most unstable countries in Latin America.

The CIA also funded and backed the 2002 coup attempt against President Chavez. Fortunately the people of Venzuela knew what to do when their democracy was being stolen. They rose up and stopped the coup. The CIA has backed 3 attempts now to oust Chavez.

An excellent website to learn about Venezuela
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/

Also, http://narconews.com has some great coverage of the days surrounding the 2002 coup

deva wrote: yes, Israel as it is should end...
I think the current US government should end.
Many people do.

I commend you on your intellectual honesty and copping to your real agenda.

(that wasn't sarcasm)
(deva's quote edited to emphasize the points of the actual statement)

- r

rtopia wrote:

deva wrote: yes, Israel as it is should end...
I think the current US government should end.
Many people do.

I commend you on your intellectual honesty and copping to your real agenda.

(that wasn't sarcasm)
(deva's quote edited to emphasize the points of the actual statement)

- r

I'll just add for clarity that I have no ill will towards the people of Israel or the U.S. and in fact I believe the citizens of both countries would be better off and indeed it is because of that belief that I feel that way.

We need a new vision and as I said above I believe that Venezuela is engaged in a very positive experiment that we can learn from.

I love Deva's support of Hugo Chavez. LOL at the idea that Venezuala is heading in the right positive direction under his leadership.... I guess you don't care a whit for checks and balances of power, free speech, and I also bet you adore his bedside manner for Castro recently.

Just guessing, if I may.

rob.

This is political propaganda. It plays on the inherent racism towards Arabs in the western mind and seeks to foster that racism into blind hatred. That is how the western citizens are themselves being turned towards fascism.

Deva,

I was referencing the quote by Hassan Nasrallah, where he outright said that if the Jews all gathered in Israel, it would save him the trouble of going after them worldwide.

IT IS EXACTLY WHAT HE SAID.



It's not western propaganda, it was a direct quote.

robtronik wrote:I love Deva's support of Hugo Chavez. LOL at the idea that Venezuala is heading in the right positive direction under his leadership.... I guess you don't care a whit for checks and balances of power, free speech, and I also bet you adore his bedside manner for Castro recently.

Just guessing, if I may.

rob.

He was democratically elected, his people like him. We chose the wrong side in that battle. IMO It's our fault that we have problems with him.

The countries the US deems enemy states or decides to befriend are not chosen because of the adherence to the democratic process, it's all about political maneuvering. This has been, and is being proven over and over again with our alliances to date.

subterFUSE wrote: It's not western propaganda, it was a direct quote.

Maybe he said he wants to give hugs to all Jews, not kill them? Must have been a mistranslation...

Machinesworking wrote:

robtronik wrote:I love Deva's support of Hugo Chavez. LOL at the idea that Venezuala is heading in the right positive direction under his leadership.... I guess you don't care a whit for checks and balances of power, free speech, and I also bet you adore his bedside manner for Castro recently.

Just guessing, if I may.

rob.

He was democratically elected, his people like him. We chose the wrong side in that battle. IMO It's our fault that we have problems with him.

The countries the US deems enemy states or decides to befriend are not chosen because of the adherence to the democratic process, it's all about political maneuvering. This has been, and is being proven over and over again with our alliances to date.

I don't disagree with the manner of his election, of course. I just dislike him in the same way I would dislike a nationalist socialist who would be elected in the same manner.

Its not the process I have a problem with, its his ideology that he wants to pass off as good for the country that I dislike. Its pretty apparent his direction when he freely supports someone like Iran's president and Castro. I mean, come on. LOL.

rob.