Ableton Forum

Seyser Koze wrote:
i think all religion and religious people should be held up to ridicule.

Oddly enough, it's the atheists on this board that are frothing at the mouth. Oddly enough, it's Dawkins (atheist/scientist), and not Collins (deist/scientist) (Time Magazine), that comes across as a closed minded biggot. Why is that?

Seyser Koze wrote:They cannot ( for obvious reason) ever come from a position of rationality on any topic due to their misplaced belief system.

My Orthodox Jewish fiance - doctor - would disagree. And her close friends, all religous scientists/doctors would as well.

Seyser Koze wrote: What really annoys me about religion is the advantage they gain in society and government by simply saying they believe in god. (Yeah? prove it!) You want tax free charity money? Sure, prove your case first!

Advantage???? Oh you must be refering to the way we have to hide our belief/practices during job interviews. So much fun. Or the way we have to put up with the commodification of sex, pre-teen bodies, etc., etc., on Billboards all over town. ONE BIG PARTY!!

Seyser Koze wrote: more than anything the fact that they still force feed children in schools to listen to their rambling nonsense sickens me,

4 years of biz school, major marketing, taught me that it's not a question of no 'ism vs. 'ism, but which 'ism you're buying into. I'll take Torah/Bible values over...hmmm, what values do atheists teach their kids, and why? For example, if God doesn't exist, and our civil laws are all wo/man made, and you've got a govt of Nazi's that say this group and that are subhuman, what overarching body of law would you turn to to disagree? And why?

Curious...why are atheists frothing at the mouth? Why does Dawkins come off as a close minded bigot, yet Collins appears balanced, calm and reasonable:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... -1,00.html

Machinesworking wrote:
What I do gather from the news points me towards believing that religious people in general suffer from all the same ailments as non religious.

THE NEWS...you're basing your opinion of religous people from THE NEWS!!

The Muslims on this board must be thrilled that rational, scientific atheists like yourself are using THE NEWS to inform their beliefs.

You sir make atheists look really, really bad.

Shit, it's almost 6 PM, better go watch the news to find out what religous peopel are up to.

At the very least, it allows you to sharpen you're argument to a razor sharp point, with which to smite down all who disagree with you.

But seriously, during the course of this discussion and every other one I've had on the topic, I've been forced to admit that since we can't disprove the existance of God (or higher power), there's an outside chance I'm wrong. Even though I find it highly, unlikely. Hell, even my robotic, analytical mind has been wrong before.

You'll find that many athiests, would consider the posibility if there were any evidence whatsoever. They'd have to.

So then, believers- care to join me? Any doubt in your minds at all? Are you willing to say there's a tiny chance, it may all be down to physics? Be honest now, God will know whether you say it not. Apparently.

(Oh, Shtreimel and Machines, come on guys, before someone get's offered out)

There are no accidents.
Everything had its cause, even "accidental" beginning of the universe.

Two of my favourite philosophers on religion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtRZpfaY4ks

andydes wrote:So then, believers- care to join me? Any doubt in your minds at all? Are you willing to say there's a tiny chance, it may all be down to physics? Be honest now, God will know whether you say it not. Apparently.

(Oh, Shtreimel and Machines, come on guys, before someone get's offered out)

Tons and tons and tons and tons. My fiance and I partake in a book club on the Jewish Sabbath, and because of her training, we've got quite a few scientist/doctor types in attendance. We all fess up to our doubts. The entire canon of Jewish theology is chock full of doubting rabbis. How can one be so sure of anything really? Well, besides rush-hour traffic and Ableton Live updates.

shtreimel wrote:

Machinesworking wrote:
What I do gather from the news points me towards believing that religious people in general suffer from all the same ailments as non religious.

THE NEWS...you're basing your opinion of religous people from THE NEWS!!

The Muslims on this board must be thrilled that rational, scientific atheists like yourself are using THE NEWS to inform their beliefs.

You sir make atheists look really, really bad.

Shit, it's almost 6 PM, better go watch the news to find out what religous peopel are up to.

OK I give up, You're not interested in discussing the issues with me, you're simply interested in "winning". Yay!
Let's see? Pedophile priests, crystal meth, and gay prostitute buying Protestant preachers, extremists in Israel settling in the war torn west bank, muslim extremists beheading people and using kids as bombs in public markets, and any number of ethical or philosophical indications constantly that religious people are as susceptible to greed, hatred and lust as any of us. Should I have brought all that up? I thought it was unnecessary. All you're doing is trying to make yourself look good, you're not addressing my point at all.
Zealots.... gotta love em!

shtreimel wrote:Curious...why are atheists frothing at the mouth? Why does Dawkins come off as a close minded bigot, yet Collins appears balanced, calm and reasonable:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... -1,00.html

interesting, (if incredibly constrained and lacking in depth due to it being part of a magazine)

personally i didnt find either of them to be foaming at the mouth, from the limited context it rather seemed like they were enjoying the discussion.

Pitch Black wrote:Two of my favourite philosophers on religion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtRZpfaY4ks

shtreimel wrote: 4 years of biz school, major marketing, taught me that it's not a question of no 'ism vs. 'ism, but which 'ism you're buying into. I'll take Torah/Bible values over...hmmm, what values do atheists teach their kids, and why? For example, if God doesn't exist, and our civil laws are all wo/man made, and you've got a govt of Nazi's that say this group and that are subhuman, what overarching body of law would you turn to to disagree? And why?

It's not rocket science, you just have to care about your fellow man. if somethings gonig to fuck over someone, then it's probably not a good thing to do. There's plenty of nasty things i could which aren't actually againct the law. But i don't, even if don't think I'll be punished for it.

Do unto others as you would have done to yourself, and all that. It doesn't need to be writen down in holy text to make it the right thing to do.

Good to see you're willing to accept the posibility of being wrong. That's a pretty worrying trait in anyone, regardless of their belief.

mdk wrote:

shtreimel wrote:Curious...why are atheists frothing at the mouth? Why does Dawkins come off as a close minded bigot, yet Collins appears balanced, calm and reasonable:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... -1,00.html

interesting, (if incredibly constrained and lacking in depth due to it being part of a magazine)

personally i didnt find either of them to be foaming at the mouth, from the limited context it rather seemed like they were enjoying the discussion.

neither did I. I would say that Dawkins is being more aggressive, but neither are really being rude to each other.

shtreimel wrote:Curious...why are atheists frothing at the mouth? Why does Dawkins come off as a close minded bigot, yet Collins appears balanced, calm and reasonable:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... -1,00.html

because it's two random representatives of different views. I think one would be a fool to claim that there was no such thing as an irrational atheist, let alone a rational religious person.

Media definitely blurs our views about this non-dichotomy these days.

Machinesworking wrote:
Let's see? Pedophile priests, crystal meth, and gay prostitute buying Protestant preachers, extremists in Israel settling in the war torn west bank, muslim extremists beheading people and using kids as bombs in public markets, and any number of ethical or philosophical indications constantly that religious people are as susceptible to greed, hatred and lust as any of us. Should I have brought all that up? I thought it was unnecessary. All you're doing is trying to make yourself look good, you're not addressing my point at all.
Zealots.... gotta love em!

I've gotta give you credit...most folks, if called out because they sourced the "news" as a credible base with which they form strongly held beliefs, would claim they typed too hastly and were misunderstood. But not you. Impressive.

Here's a clue:
sensational headlines = advertising $$$

If you wanna find out what religious people really do, shut off the news, and spend time in their communities.

Machinesworking wrote:

mdk wrote:

shtreimel wrote:Curious...why are atheists frothing at the mouth? Why does Dawkins come off as a close minded bigot, yet Collins appears balanced, calm and reasonable:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... -1,00.html

interesting, (if incredibly constrained and lacking in depth due to it being part of a magazine)

personally i didnt find either of them to be foaming at the mouth, from the limited context it rather seemed like they were enjoying the discussion.

neither did I. I would say that Dawkins is being more aggressive, but neither are really being rude to each other.

Not being rude? Really? How about one scientist telling another scientist that because of his beliefs he's not a scientist:

DAWKINS: ...suddenly you find yourself losing all of your natural skepticism and your scientific--really scientific--credibility. I'm sorry to be so blunt.

COLLINS: I would challenge the statement that my scientific instincts are any less rigorous than yours.

Curious then. Is the media helping or hurting religion ?