Ableton Forum

Goddammit, post audio examples of stfu.

PMC monitors.

Live does not sound. Music does.

yummy! my favorite second ears after genelec.

that way you truly can enjoy music.

no. you have a finite number of values to work with but you can apply them to scale any range of numbers.

And the decision of that range might interfear with the audio quality of a mix?

or is it not that unlimited? maybe as unlimited as digital pure 16 bit sound back in the 80´s?"
that makes no sense. 16 bit is limited. man, you really need to read up on this stuff.

Oh good.. thats what i was thinking back in the 80´s than.. but the specialists prooved us wrong because the dynamic range of 16 bit is so great that everything that hurts is well in the noisefloor...
At least thats waht they told us back than.. sounds familar somehow...
just our "noisefloor" is 60 db lower now...

maybe the fact sheet is just wrong or not precise enough about how to get transparent audio thru life...
why blame Live when it's the user that can't figure out how to play a file?

because it might be a bad design when even an experianced user adter 7 years gets this wrong all the time?
And dont gets the answer to the simple question...

so i ve to assume there is no real transparent audio thru live..

i thaught warping is automatical of when the file is set on song speed.. tru or false?
depends on the warp mode. again, you really need to go learn about this stuff.

warp mode off showed the phenomen aswell.. so i thaught it might be related to live than..
But maybe the quicktime player, logic and samplitude just polishing the sound somehow and ableton is real transparent?

Isnt it possible that other daws have choosen more wisely than? at least the debate regarding the ableton sound is rather old and dies hard
yes, and this has already been discussed. give us evidence on Live's sound quality.

shure.. play an audio file in the quicktime player.. do it in life... listen

evindece enough? for me its enough..
everything else is work...
Remember the last time people complained... and ableton said.. give us proove...
proove was found..program was changend..

In the end of the days yu can belife the eras of soundengineers worldwide..
Do a poll on rec.audio.pro or something.. you might get the picture

you can hear the difference with the 64 bit summing engine? the difference was on the order of -130dB, something like that. I don't believe you.

-130 db?

gong thru 2 times 500 watt into westlake bbsm 10 .. listening level 85-110 phon..

how do we relate that to -130 db..

-130 db from fullscale?

fullscale would have blown my speakers in that setting.. so i asume i am closser to the -130 as some think..

However .. i made compliments about the better sound of live 7 back than... so i assume i must have heard something..
was the changes advertized? i cant remember that i ever heard ableton advertizing an improoved soundquality.. but it seems to improove from release to release... the samplerate conversion got better for example.. but still not good enough to have it on any file

you need to go read up on these topics before you go making claims. you'll pick it up in time, clearly you want to know.

I dont make any claims.. i just report some odditys..
odditys that are going on along time in te digtal/analog debate and now in the live sounds worse or not debate..

ther are similaritys.. and you have to be more philosophic about it.. in booth directions..

people hear what they want... in booth directions..

and technicals nerds will sell us the atom bomb as our safiour again and again..

the truth is somewhere in the middle..
And when companys like digidesign can still improove theier sound it might be possible for ableton aswell..seeing the 20 years gap in beeing on the market there...

The claim to be perfect is the most stupid of them all...

nobody is saying Live is perfect!!!! people like you are saying it's flawed, we're asking you why its flawed, you're not making any sense, you're making huge mistakes in every post and you can't provide an example of how Live sounds bad.

this started with you saying the midi fact sheet was a joke, it's not.

someone else needs to take this up with you, I'm not this bored.


on behalf of the nerds...
"technicals nerds will sell us the atom bomb as our safiour again and again.."
no, it was the politicians that sold you on it.


I respect your polite tone through this but I just disagree with you on all points. I would highly recommend you read some books on audio. you have lots of questions and misconceptions but you do like audio, I respect that.

I'm reading that book now, the second edition. holy crap that guy knows his shit.


have you read it kb420?

3phase wrote: but mixing in prottols hd defenetly sounds better.. ok..its 48 bit fixed.. does this make a difference?

ProTools uses a different pan law, which may sometimes sound better, sometimes worse. With "better" / "worse" I mean the perception of stereo signals, and whether you perceive it as better or not highly depends on your speaker setup and on your audio material. The psychoacoustic effect of different pan laws is astonishing sometimes.

3phase wrote: And i recently had again the problem of listening to a mix via the apple quicktime player..
importing the mix in live to hear some sound fx over it n sync...and..
Sounded not the same as played from the quicktime player anymore..
Projekt speed on the file..warp in repitch..

Not sure what happened here. I'm sure there's a logical reason. We should try to find out what it is.

3phase wrote: shouldnt this be an acoustc transparent setting? or is only beat warp on song tempo transparent?

Yes, Re-Pitch is transparent. All warp modes are transparent at the original tempo, except complex / complex pro. Anything else would be a bug.

3phase wrote: And other question..Are all 32bit floating audio engines the same? because its just math they should be...

but why you can overload one 32 bit floating point system easy while on others like ableton you can record with +30 db and turn it down on the master and everything is allwright?

Sorry, but I don't entirely understand that point. However, recording external signals should NEVER exceed 0 dB because it would clip on your AD converter. Only internally routed signals can be driven hot. This should be identical in all floating point engines, except if there's a built-in limiter. As I mentioned before, Live has a safety limit at +60 dB.

3phase wrote: So i really would like to know why some companys are so stupid to do the "easy to clip" design when there is no benefit..

ProTools HD calculates its effects on DSPs. That's the reason why it has a fixed point engine. ProTools LE does however use a 32-bit floating point engine. There's even a link on their website which descibes the difference: http://www.digidesign.com/index.cfm?nav ... egoryid=34

Apart from ProTools HD, there aren't many fixed point DAWs left. I don't even know any others.

Tone Deft wrote:I'm reading that book now, the second edition. holy crap that guy knows his shit.


have you read it kb420?

I read the first edition. I learned more about digital audio in that book than I've learned anywhere else.

and after reading you can use a pair of those to experience...



coupled with that:


in a well treated environment.

Hey Tone, here is another great read:






I wish I would have read this book before I read Katz's, but they are both good books.

Tone Deft wrote:. I would highly recommend you read some books on audio. you have lots of questions and misconceptions but you do like audio, I respect that.

books? no thanks, too much false information there .. i prefer to get word of mouth from insiders..


however..you still dont have answered my question..

is warp repitch on original song speed transparent or is the samplerate conversion on than?

With all the books you ve read and the knowledge you have about ableton lifes interna you must know..or?

i have to say that i read back at my posts here and i feel i must apologize to henke, his new album is SICK and I came off like I was criticizing his work which was not my intention at all. i do like the sound of the older track better (even with the "bad" mastering) but that's strictly my opinion. all of it is still good

something about this forum brings out the worst in me apparently, something i've never experienced on any other boards, some of which i frequent much more often.

i still believe personally that all the programs sound different and have respective strengths and weaknesses. i'm not a programmer so i have no idea why but of all the artists i talk to many of them share this same opinion

there will never be an answer that everyone will agree on

i dont think it's fair to criticize people for trying to talk about this stuff and really trying to LEARN something. there are many constructive and eye opening threads on gearslutz about this topic, and people aren't being flamed the second this comes up, which is why there is real information to be found there. nothing can be accomplished if people aren't open to questioning things

i think it's valid to question it because as we have seen, people from all levels of music have opinions on this stuff.

i respect what henke has said here, but keep in mind ableton is his product

For 3phase

[nis] wrote:

3phase wrote: shouldnt this be an acoustc transparent setting? or is only beat warp on song tempo transparent?

Yes, Re-Pitch is transparent. All warp modes are transparent at the original tempo, except complex / complex pro. Anything else would be a bug.

diskowipe wrote:
there will never be an answer that everyone will agree on

We will agree on what can be proven.

diskowipe wrote: i respect what henke has said here, but keep in mind ableton is his product

True, but at least he can prove what he says with credibility.




I thought you were done with this thread.

Anyway, I will be at the game on Sunday!!!!

Not sure what happened here. I'm sure there's a logical reason. We should try to find out what it is.

3phase wrote: shouldnt this be an acoustc transparent setting? or is only beat warp on song tempo transparent?

Yes, Re-Pitch is transparent. All warp modes are transparent at the original tempo, except complex / complex pro. Anything else would be a bug.

I reported it as a bug.. because its a behaviour that i came along many years ago and i thaought that was fixed in teh way you describe it.. i actually like to sugest that the actual upcoming of ableton sound discussions might be related to that bug...

[q
Apart from ProTools HD, there aren't many fixed point DAWs left. I don't even know any others.

[/quote]


I am not sure.. publison was fixed point..augan? i gues aswell.. fairlight? anyway

withn the software domain all are 32 bit float?
and people hear a difference between logic, cubase and live.. samplitude and wavelab..

do they?