ot..... VOTE Republican in November. Protect America

[channelite]

I usually vote lesser of two evils. This election it'll be another hard choice, because Dems and Reps don't look very promising... My two cents..

[hoffman2k]

The longer this democratic election process goes on, the more it feels scripted.
I'm just waiting for one of these 3 candidates to break kayfabe!

[glu]

oh hello. one of these again.

i find it very sad (as in creating a deep sense of melancholy) that still in the 21st century we spend so much time and energy debating / arguing between two non-choices.

republican / democrat

labour / conservative
its all the fucking same. corporations first. people last.

what is it about us humans that makes us fall into this trap of narrowly focused comparatives? are we just stupid?

do we really want to continue to support the dominance of psychopathy over *our* planet?

well, I am an American and I agree with the above rhetorical questions.

It's really a non-choice once you realize that a vote in this election is a
vote for elite capital accumulation and further dispossession of the poor.

Using the discourse of democracy masks domination, and like mdk said,
we are going to continue to support dominance as long as we engage
this system by voting- it only further legitimizes the illegitimate monopolization
of normative violence. All candidates have used strong words promising
to further escalate state violence in the middle east.

and fuck nationalist hubris

While you talk down about capitalism, democracy, and monopolization you're enjoying all the fruits and privileges of capitalism, democracy and monopolization

fyi there are no true monopolies in the world - just an fyi

----

did it ever occur to you the system is working, working so well you don't even notice it

it's a hard pill to swallow but it's true

Fuck that. Love you Ad, but the system is only working for a small fraction
of the world. Just because I get to enjoy the fruits of the world doesn't mean
that captialism (in it's current form) is "working" unless you specify who it is
working for or against... and that is what I take issue with.

Now that's a much larger jagged pill to swallow, because millions of people around
the world are not willing to give up their big screen TVs, favorite shows, computer
music programs,etc. so that kids from Senegal to Guatemala can go to school, drink clean water, etc.

As I said (I didn't talk down capitalism, only the changes in capitalist markets
in the post-Fordian era), social democracy and capitalism had a falling out.
Capitalist markets worked better for the common worker in the Fordist era.
Now we are living in a new era of market financialization, property entrepreneurship, and the privatization of social rights.

I didn't talk down democracy either dude. In fact, I stand for real social democracy,
not some warped Bourgeois system of exclusion/inclusion of public sphere. I study
democratic theory and acknowledge that it is an unfinished project. When does
democracy become dominance? When does liberty become discipline? Read some
Nancy Fraser if you don't understand where I am coming from.

And I didn't talk down "monopolization" itself, but rather monopolization of
normative violence and political power.

FYI-I would say it's a bit naive to say that there are no true monopolies in the world, you are going to have to explain that statement to me and distinguish
between the type of monopolies I talk about and this idea of "true monopoly."
Normative violence is "truly monopolized" by the state, legitimized by our votes,
and carried out on nations that are too weak to properly defend themselves.

[glu]

and "did it ever occur to you" that the use of pejorative dialog is lame?

[Homebelly]

did it ever occur to you the system is working, working so well you don't even notice it

it's a hard pill to swallow but it's true

Thats because your on the side of the fence that the system benefits.
There are plenty of people in the not only the poorer parts of the US but also the world that are living on the other side of that fence.

[jesso]

Hey ho mr tone.
Im not especially proud of where im from, although its a nice place to live, its green and there are leperachauns everywhere.
I am a genius though, at least that is being acknowledged.
I was also a bit worried about bringing any more people into this overcrowded world, until I accidentally did. Now I dont worry so much.
I know and love lots of Americans, and have been there plenty. Parts of it are just swell. I just can't believe how someone like Bush (Im yawning as I write this) could remain in office for so long. It stands to reason that the country is deeply deluded on some level.
I never get involved in political discussion here, because im not very good at it. Go easy on me.

[glu]

I got a little strong earlier, just killing time waiting for my monome case. (yay!) I just pushed back where I was being pushed, criticize my country, look at your own. meh, politics. still waiting to hear from that genius jesso.

we're given at birth a great country to live in, appreciate that. there's a big shit sandwich that comes along with this country in particular but would you rather eat the Macedonia shit sandwich (that's some heavy shit), or France, or England, or Australia? New Zealand sounds amazing but I respect it too much to consider polluting its water with my American blood.

ultimately my view is that it's not even worth having kids. I think things will change, but that's easy, Bush is such a twat doing egregiously WRONG things, a return to the normal corruption will be a breathe of fresh air. EVERY president has done creepy, wrong things.



so... what to do about it? dunno man, I'm going to go take a walk, get a burrito, open the Cov Ops contest set, play some GTA and enjoy my day. but I'm also going to vote Obama and rant to people against McCain and give my rants that Hillary and Obama are pretty much the same, we just need to get lefties out to vote. I could get active locally but I don't enjoy politics, just the banter amongst the people I work with (a mix of far left and far right creeps) and this forum where people like you glu have made me THINK about this stuff. sometimes I write stupid stuff just to hear how it gets ground up by the forum. I do look for weak spots in my understanding.

anyway, that guy with my monome case bailed, oh well, there's always monday. nice day out!

that sucks about the monome case! I bet that was supposed to make your day. I am still bangin away on the SL25, but i really want a grid of blinking lights!

[djgroovy]

The longer this democratic election process goes on, the more it feels scripted.

+1

Can you say divide & conquer?

Something.

Seeing the poll, you really are almost the last one!

[djadonis206]

Fuck that. Love you Ad, but the system is only working for a small fraction
of the world. Just because I get to enjoy the fruits of the world doesn't mean
that captialism (in it's current form) is "working" unless you specify who it is
working for or against... and that is what I take issue with.

Now that's a much larger jagged pill to swallow, because millions of people around
the world are not willing to give up their big screen TVs, favorite shows, computer
music programs,etc. so that kids from Senegal to Guatemala can go to school, drink clean water, etc.

As I said (I didn't talk down capitalism, only the changes in capitalist markets
in the post-Fordian era), social democracy and capitalism had a falling out.
Capitalist markets worked better for the common worker in the Fordist era.
Now we are living in a new era of market financialization, property entrepreneurship, and the privatization of social rights.

I didn't talk down democracy either dude. In fact, I stand for real social democracy,
not some warped Bourgeois system of exclusion/inclusion of public sphere. I study
democratic theory and acknowledge that it is an unfinished project. When does
democracy become dominance? When does liberty become discipline? Read some
Nancy Fraser if you don't understand where I am coming from.

And I didn't talk down "monopolization" itself, but rather monopolization of
normative violence and political power.

FYI-I would say it's a bit naive to say that there are no true monopolies in the world, you are going to have to explain that statement to me and distinguish
between the type of monopolies I talk about and this idea of "true monopoly."
Normative violence is "truly monopolized" by the state, legitimized by our votes,
and carried out on nations that are too weak to properly defend themselves.

Love you too - this is just time wasting conversation so...no hard feelings taken or implied

so

A monopoly - from 2 Greek words meaning "one seller" - the problem with using the word monopoly is the concept of substitutes.

The word monopoly is extraordinarily ambiguous. For everyone or no one is a sole seller depending on how we define the "commodity" (normative violence in this case) being sold. There's no real way to decide in all cases just how broadly or narrowly the concept of a "commodity" (normative violence) ought to be defined.

anywayz - we live in a free market country and deal with other free market countries. Yes, there are winners and there are losers, but overall everyone is better off. - It's not a lop-sided game. How one country deals with it's OWN problems is their problem. They enter into agreements expecting to be better off - otherwise they wouldn't do it.

on the subject of our own backyard - it would help if you didn't think about people and classes of people as STATIC things. Some one who is poor today may not be poor tomorrow. Take a 18 year old kid. By definition he is poor. If he goes to college, or works hard at his job over the next 4 years he will probably not be poor anymore. If someone is rich today and invests poorly and looses all their money they will not be rich in that same 4 years. You can apply that to all sorts of situations. Look at China and India.

and why should someone give up there television set or new car. That television set probably employed people who otherwise wouldn't have been employed - that car probably gave people jobs. So lets stop making and buying televisions and cars. By my argument those are people losing jobs. Jobs that they probably need.

[djadonis206]

Lets pull our factories out of countries with comparative advantages. All those unskilled, uneducated people living in 3rd world countries now don't have jobs or any way of making any kind of wage. What do you think they'll do? And where are those jobs going to go? here?

Do you believe the United States is the only country setting up factories in other countries taking advantage of the comparative advantages of that country? More and more foreign countries are taking advantage of the souths comparative advantage. No minimum wage. BWM set up a while ago in Alabama. They gave plenty of unskilled, uneducated people jobs. Just like we do abroad. But no one calls foul about that? Why?

Because our people are the ones benefiting. Are these other countries governments calling foul or special interest groups calling foul? Are the actual people benefiting calling foul?

or is it special interest groups in America 1000's of mile away trying to tell other people what they should be feeling?

lots of questions, I know

[glu]

Fuck that. Love you Ad, but the system is only working for a small fraction
of the world. Just because I get to enjoy the fruits of the world doesn't mean
that captialism (in it's current form) is "working" unless you specify who it is
working for or against... and that is what I take issue with.

Now that's a much larger jagged pill to swallow, because millions of people around
the world are not willing to give up their big screen TVs, favorite shows, computer
music programs,etc. so that kids from Senegal to Guatemala can go to school, drink clean water, etc.

As I said (I didn't talk down capitalism, only the changes in capitalist markets
in the post-Fordian era), social democracy and capitalism had a falling out.
Capitalist markets worked better for the common worker in the Fordist era.
Now we are living in a new era of market financialization, property entrepreneurship, and the privatization of social rights.

I didn't talk down democracy either dude. In fact, I stand for real social democracy,
not some warped Bourgeois system of exclusion/inclusion of public sphere. I study
democratic theory and acknowledge that it is an unfinished project. When does
democracy become dominance? When does liberty become discipline? Read some
Nancy Fraser if you don't understand where I am coming from.

And I didn't talk down "monopolization" itself, but rather monopolization of
normative violence and political power.

FYI-I would say it's a bit naive to say that there are no true monopolies in the world, you are going to have to explain that statement to me and distinguish
between the type of monopolies I talk about and this idea of "true monopoly."
Normative violence is "truly monopolized" by the state, legitimized by our votes,
and carried out on nations that are too weak to properly defend themselves.

Love you too - this is just time wasting conversation so...no hard feelings taken or implied

so

A monopoly - from 2 Greek words meaning "one seller" - the problem with using the word monopoly is the concept of substitutes.

The word monopoly is extraordinarily ambiguous. For everyone or no one is a sole seller depending on how we define the "commodity" (normative violence in this case) being sold. There's no real way to decide in all cases just how broadly or narrowly the concept of a "commodity" (normative violence) ought to be defined.

anywayz - we live in a free market country and deal with other free market countries. Yes, there are winners and there are losers, but overall everyone is better off. - It's not a lop-sided game. How one country deals with it's OWN problems is their problem. They enter into agreements expecting to be better off - otherwise they wouldn't do it.

on the subject of our own backyard - it would help if you didn't think about people and classes of people as STATIC things. Some one who is poor today may not be poor tomorrow. Take a 18 year kid. By definition he is poor. If he goes to college, or works hard at his job over the next 4 years he will not be poor anymore. If someone is rich today and invests poorly and looses all their money they will not be rich in that same 4 years. You can apply that to all sorts of situations. Look at China and India.

and why should someone give up there television set or new car. That television set probably employed people who otherwise wouldn't have been employed - that car probably gave people jobs. So lets stop making buying televisions and cars. By my argument those are people losing jobs. Jobs that they probably need.

The idea that we enjoy a "free-market economy" is not entirely accurate, it is
in fact a misrepresentation of the way the State articulates with the markets.
The State used to be a central agent in economic affairs in much of the Western
world, but that has changed in the post-Fordist era. Now the state is responsible
for creating trade environments. So free-market economy is a capitalist ideal,
but it isn't the practice, nor would we want it to be if we believe in the social
contract and the existence of social rights.

Economic conditions are not static, indeed, incipient homelessness is on the rise, recent feminization of poverty in the US has surpassed that of other industrial nations, a growing economic disparity between rich and poor has become more
present under the Clinton/Bush regimes... so I do not argue against how we should view economic conditions, I never said anything about it being static. In fact, I say the worst has yet to come.

To say that everyone is "better off" is a contentious statement that deserves
more attention. We can go in circles with this argument because such a claim
cannot be proven or disproved. This is a political tactic that has been used
by the Bush admin throughout the past 8 years and it really just confuses
everyone. I don't think the hundreds of thousands IDP in Iraq think they are
better off.

Lastly, normative violence is monopolized by the state because the state has
the ultimate authority to legislate and thus deem what is illegitimate or deviant
violence. The State deems what is normative and deviant, therefore the State
has the ultimate control of violence as a "commodity" and whether it is legitimate
or not. I do not believe that Clinton or Obama will hestitate to use illegitimate
violence against other parts of the world, they both aspire to win votes so they
have to appear taugh of 'terror' similarly to how Clinton witnessed executions
during his presidential candidacy to prove that democrats were 'hard of crime'
since republicans had previously claimed that as only endemic to their
party's platform. Clinton also used illegitimate violence during his presidency,
but not too many people remember or care to remember NATO in the Sky.

cool, peace.

[glu]

Lets pull our factories out of countries with comparative advantages. All those unskilled, uneducated people living in 3rd world countries now don't have jobs or any way of making any kind of wage. What do you think they'll do? And where are those jobs going to go? here?

Do you believe the United States is the only country setting up factories in other countries taking advantage of the comparative advantages of that country? More and more foreign countries are taking advantage of the souths comparative advantage. No minimum wage. BWM set up a while ago in Alabama. They gave plenty of unskilled, uneducated people jobs. Just like we do abroad. But no one calls foul about that? Why?

Because our people are the ones benefiting. Are these other countries governments calling foul or special interest groups calling foul? Or the actual people benefiting calling foul?

or is it special interest groups in America 1000's of mile away trying to tell other people what they should be feeling?

lots of questions, I know

Wow, yes lots of questions. But I am not an isolationist either, and I believe
that indeed we have to look at the scalar reorganization of the global economy
to answer your questions. It is a fact that labor markets are global.

In terms of the US, it started in the North, then factories moved south, then they
moved out from the inner cities, then they moved over seas. With other countries,
Mexico started buying cheaper labor in Honduras, China in SE Asia, etc etc, so of
course the US isn't the only player.

What we have now is beyond borders. It is a vast network of global elites who
control large segments of the global economy and enjoy capital accumulation
by upward redistribution.

[djadonis206]

Well, I can't pretend to know about military action and global stradgey - but I can say this. It's not Obama or Clinton I worry about when it comes to normative violence. I worry about China, North Korea, some (SOME) middle eastern countries.

As China becomes THE economic super power they will no doubt become the world Military super power.

If, if us or some other ally is not in a position (on a global scale) to protect the people of that country then well...something bad might happen.

I'm totally against the Iraq thing and so on and so on

[Tone Deft]

Hey ho mr tone.
Im not especially proud of where im from, although its a nice place to live, its green and there are leperachauns everywhere.
I am a genius though, at least that is being acknowledged.
I was also a bit worried about bringing any more people into this overcrowded world, until I accidentally did. Now I dont worry so much.
I know and love lots of Americans, and have been there plenty. Parts of it are just swell. I just can't believe how someone like Bush (Im yawning as I write this) could remain in office for so long. It stands to reason that the country is deeply deluded on some level.
I never get involved in political discussion here, because im not very good at it. Go easy on me.

I'll be gentle. I can't/don't take this political stuff seriously and what happens in these threads stays in these threads.

I have no answer about Bush, it's extremely embarrassing. all I can say is that we're working on it and IMO a good side effect is that he's destroyed his political party as much as he's destroyed the US economy, hopefully his kind won't get elected again anytime soon.

glu - yeah, the monome case is a bummer but I found a good guy to make the case, he works in a plastics shop and takes the trickier projects home to work on, plus he's into musical toys, the mojo's there. just had a burger and a few beers at Magnolia then a nap in Golden Gate Park, life is good!!

[glu]

That's why the US celebrated when the govt shot down the spy satellite, it was
a huge accomplishment in terms of space wars, so dont' worry, there will be
24 missiles satelliting the globe waiting for such a military offense.