Ableton Forum

Landwhale wrote:Adonis, no disrespect, but the mentality that you're approaching this with is exactly why these systems WILL become increasingly invasive and extremely oppressive, as if they aren't bad enough already.

Forge sees it, YOU may think that you're a law-abiding citizen, but honestly, with laws becoming more ridiculous and our rights being taken away at an alarming rate, it's inevitable that you will eventually become a criminal as long as the system(s) are allowed to evolve in the direction they're headed.

We've already had low-level tracking and surveillance that has been "fighting crime" against us horrible criminals for years, with toll roads, stop lights, etc. for traffic infractions.
You know, you get to a toll booth that gives you 2 options, you either have an ePass or SunPass (here in Florida), or you have exact change. If you don't have either, than you are forced to "commit a crime" and run through the toll booth.

This happened to me just the other day, I was driving on a toll road, had enough cash to pay the tolls with me, but I could only find a few nickels in my car, not enough to pay 1 toll, let alone the 3 that I had to pass through to get to school on time.
So my choices were:
A) Pull over somewhere and get change for the tolls, be 15-30 minutes late to class, leaving a classroom full of children by themselves and potentially losing my job.
B)Use an ePass (I don't want or need a fucking ePass, thank you
C) Exact change, which I didn't have on me at the time
OR
D)Run the tolls, get to class on time, keep my job

I chose D, and as such received a friendly reminder in the mail in no less than 2 weeks letting me know that my vehicle had "experienced payment problems three (3) or more occasions in at least thirty (30) days, and that any further violations after the date of this letter will result in the issuance of a Uniform Traffic Citation."

Obviously, this incident alone is not a HUGE deal, and I'm sure the fine would not be that much, but it's the fucking principle behind it, and the evolution path this type of bullshit will take that IS a big deal.

We are looking at the PROBABILITY of committing lots of little "crimes" without even being aware of it, incurring fines that will add up to a nice tidy sum we'll have to be paying out left and right, and the money we will be paying out will probably fund future technologies to make tracking and collecting fines even more accurate.

And that's just talking about little stuff, I wouldn't dare talk about anything that could be considered...I don't know.... dissent. Now you're talking about "domestic terrorism".

how is this story indicative of government control? this story just says to me that youre not organised enough to pay the tolls you knew you were going through, and want to blame it on everyone but yourself.

djadonis206 wrote: If your goal is to fight the man, more power to you and I wish you the best of luck

Jesus, I wish more people on the left had that kind of attitude rather that constant put downs and derriding of anybody further left than them.

Machinesworking wrote:

djadonis206 wrote: If your goal is to fight the man, more power to you and I wish you the best of luck

Jesus, I wish more people on the left had that kind of attitude rather that constant put downs and derriding of anybody further left than them.

It neither a left or right thing to "Fight the man".
Its an anti establishment thing.

Kinda-sorta related.. I've always considered this to be one of the great ironies of the white supremacist movements fixation on the NAZI's. They seem to pass by the part where the NAZI's where socialists.. instead they consider them selves to be on the far right...

how is this story indicative of government control? this story just says to me that youre not organised enough to pay the tolls you knew you were going through, and want to blame it on everyone but yourself.

You completely missed the point pants. A point I felt was REALLY obvious, but I suppose not.
You see, I tried to use a small example as a microcosm for the big picture here, but as usual, it falls on deaf ears.
I'm not blaming anyone for my "lack of organization" as you may call it, I'm pissed about my lack of choice in the matter, as well as the ridiculous punishment that WHILE MINOR in financial cost, is still complete bullshit.
I wouldn't normally be inclined to explain myself further in a situation like this, but I'm confused as to how you missed my point, so I'll divulge a bit more information.

I was starting up a new guitar class at one of the school's that I supervise in Orlando, I currently oversee the guitar classes at 20 different schools in Central and South Florida. So I guess the ExpressWay Authority is RIGHT, I deserve to be fined if I don't have all the toll booth options memorized for all the routes that I might take on any given day. Same goes for all the other awful, disorganized bastards that have MUCH harder, more demanding lives than I do.
Damn all those delinquent mothers and fathers out there trying to drive their kids to schools or the babysitter's, or grocery store, any of the milions of things on their plate on any given day. Fine those assholes, they should have been prepared. Lazy fucks, right?
Considering I HAD the money on me, and most toll booths have an option to pay with cash, I felt I was fully prepared for the situation at hand.
However, since I was NOT given the choice to pay with cash, I'm now "experiencing problems with payment" according to the ExpressWay Authority, and any further "problems with payment" will result in me having to pay fines to the ExpressWay Authority.

You're probably thinking, "God, why get so worked about something so small, just pay your fine and get on with life". Well, fuck that.

It's not about the small fine they charge now, it's about how far these types of things can and WILL eventually go. The next logical step, in the eyes of the ExpressWay Authority, is to remove the options to pay with cash or change, since it is far more "inconvenient", and therefore require you to either have an ePass or other automatic tracking device to charge to your account.

I don't think it's hard to grasp what I'm talking about here. We're not living (for the moment anyways) in what one would typically think of as a fascist state.
In most cases, there is no iron fist smashing you in the face oppressing you in a very non-debatable, obvious manner.

What's happening here, and has been happening, is that we're slowly being convinced to FUCK OURSELVES, and made to believe that we deserve it.
Adventurepants, statements like yours and djadonis unfortunately re-affirm this in my eyes. This is not a jab at you, I'm sure your both good people. That's why it is disheartening to me, I hate seeing people around me feel as though they deserve whatever the system decides to give them, whether it be punishment or reward.
We're being conditioned to feel like criminals for simply being human.
You may think that it stops there, with traffic infractions and the like. But believe me it does not, and will continue to get worse.

You may think that it is a ridiculous statement to say that the very kind of conversation we're having on this forum may one day be ILLEGAL. Yet think about it. Once the "domestic terrorism" theme starts really taking off in this country, which it already has (Palin is using it very casually now when talking about "Obama's pals"), and political dissent can be legally defined as terrorism, WHICH IT ALREADY COULD BE, then how hard would it be for the CIA to search forums and/or put filters on them? China already publicly does this shit, and if you don't think it will/does happen here, then you must have no foresight at all, or you're in complete denial of where you live.

Social networks like Myspace & Facebook already have the potential as HUGE data-mining farms for the CIA, and at risk of being a "conspiracy theorist", I believe it is WELL within the realm of reality to say that this has long been true.

Landwhale wrote:...What's happening here, and has been happening, is that we're slowly being convinced to FUCK OURSELVES, and made to believe that we deserve it.....

An interesting occurrence that now happens inside a decade, as opposed to a life time, is the changing meaning of certain words and phrases. Populations are simply told that its not OK to hold on to a certain meaning of a word anymore, but that you must now believe it to mean something else. In fact, if you still hold to a view that might only be 20 years old, you could be socially punished, if not potentially in danger of being labeled a criminal.

The difference between Racist and Prejudice and Terrorist and Activist are two interesting examples.

Whats also very interesting is how quickly 'Public Opinion' is now formed.

Be aware of the changing face of the word 'Freedom.'

An interesting occurrence that now happens inside a decade, as opposed to a life time, is the changing meaning of certain words and phrases. Populations are simply told that its not OK to hold on to a certain meaning of a word anymore, but that you must now believe it to mean something else. In fact, if you still hold to a view that might only be 20 years old, you could be socially punished, if not potentially in danger of being labeled a criminal.

The difference between Racist and Prejudice and Terrorist and Activist are two interesting examples.

Whats also very interesting is how quickly 'Public Opinion' is now formed.

Be aware of the changing face of the word 'Freedom.'

Very true. "Domestic Terrorism" is already so loosely defined it's unreal.
I wonder, anyone reading this topic, whom would you consider as a domestic terrorist, or borderline domestic terrorist? What makes them fit that definition, in your mind? I wonder how quickly this has already seeped into our collective unconscious? These things do indeed move very quickly, it seems a handful of public utterances by the right politicians is all it takes nowadays.

markets in freefall across the world, i am so glad the bill added confidence to the market

ftse closed down -7.85%, biggest one day drop since 1984

i just hope to crap it rallies tomorrow otherwise some shit will start to go down.

Emissary wrote:markets in freefall across the world, i am so glad the bill added confidence to the market

Didn't we mention something about this on Friday.

Landwhale wrote: I don't think it's hard to grasp what I'm talking about here. We're not living (for the moment anyways) in what one would typically think of as a fascist state.
In most cases, there is no iron fist smashing you in the face oppressing you in a very non-debatable, obvious manner.

We are much closer to a fascist state than people realize. The thing is, people are mostly so obedient that they do not notice. If you obey, you do not see the iron fist.

Try exercising your first amendment rights though, and you will see how close we are. You will feel the dark chill firsthand. Fascism is a dark malevolent force that grows and seduces people towards darkness.

Try attending something like the RNC protests, and see firsthand how many police have no expression of humanity, or worse, a sickly gleam of pleasure in the eyes as they pull out their sticks and start beating people who have done nothing. Of course, more and more, you cannot even see the eyes as the cops look like storm troopers now.

The Constitution and Bill of Rights are hanging on by a few threads. These days people are rounded up in mass arrests, seized from their homes without probable cause, arrested on trumped up charges, put into 'free speech zones' where you are surrounded by barbed wire and have no chance to actually talk to anyone. Free Speech is based on the notion of communication. There is no communication if you are in a barbed wire fence in the middle of a huge parking lot and being photographed by Homeland Security agents with nobody around that you can talk to. That is as much of a mockery of free speech as anything Orwell dreamed up.

Emissary wrote:markets in freefall across the world, i am so glad the bill added confidence to the market

Since the bill passed the DOW is down 1000 points

deva wrote:

Landwhale wrote: I don't think it's hard to grasp what I'm talking about here. We're not living (for the moment anyways) in what one would typically think of as a fascist state.
In most cases, there is no iron fist smashing you in the face oppressing you in a very non-debatable, obvious manner.

We are much closer to a fascist state than people realize. The thing is, people are mostly so obedient that they do not notice. If you obey, you do not see the iron fist.

Try exercising your first amendment rights though, and you will see how close we are. You will feel the dark chill firsthand. Fascism is a dark malevolent force that grows and seduces people towards darkness.

Try attending something like the RNC protests, and see firsthand how many police have no expression of humanity, or worse, a sickly gleam of pleasure in the eyes as they pull out their sticks and start beating people who have done nothing. Of course, more and more, you cannot even see the eyes as the cops look like storm troopers now.

The Constitution and Bill of Rights are hanging on by a few threads. These days people are rounded up in mass arrests, seized from their homes without probable cause, arrested on trumped up charges, put into 'free speech zones' where you are surrounded by barbed wire and have no chance to actually talk to anyone. Free Speech is based on the notion of communication. There is no communication if you are in a barbed wire fence in the middle of a huge parking lot and being photographed by Homeland Security agents with nobody around that you can talk to. That is as much of a mockery of free speech as anything Orwell dreamed up.

You are 100% right! (not used in political terms) I exercised my first amendment rights near the end of last year. The out come was not pretty for myself. Lets just say, cops love beating on little guys and enjoy it even more once they get you into a confined space. Fortunately for myself, once the concussion subsided, I made the request for a phone call to a certain family member involved with government affairs. Amazing how fast some things can change.

Doesn't look good

is anyone else watching this? the dow just lost 100 points in about 5 minutes. this is pretty incredible veiwing for what is essentially just some numbers descending