Ableton Forum

Homebelly wrote:This thread could turn a corner and become an interesting debate about the validity of having some one learn an "Instrument" and have them learn "Music".

When I started using Live, I was a self taught guitarist. When I bought a midi keyboard, I started learning music. Things started to click, like 'oh, thats what makes a diminished chord different from a major chord. Actually knowing what notes sound good together and why helped me so much in my music making.

As for learning an instrument or Live, get them a midi keyboard and take them to piano lessons. Skills learned there will help with both

Just my $0.02...

some over here with the fantasy of beeing the father of a future musician genius???

just be the musician (genius or not), and destiny will do the rest

In my future house (still in a flat for now), there wil be a kind of music studio room, where all my stuff will be accessible (drum set, guitar, piano, synths, computer / DAW, mixer and controllers....)

This room will be open to my kids (when I have some, and when they will be clean, calm and respectful for the objects )

Just let the kid grow and learn, he is yes ful of potential, but I guess IT'S A WRONG WAY IF WE USE THIS POTENTIAL FOR OUR PROPER FANTASIES...

C'mon, kids are NOT SPONGES, NOT DOGS that you can grow up and make of it what you like.

I agree taking kids to musical school is a good thing (having myself learned music and instruments since the age of 6, but that was no real pain and I now appreciate the big gain),

but it begins to become pain in the ass when the parents (or teachers) tend to fuck with 'professionalism" and see their proper inner desire instead of the real child interest...


Begin to be the musician, and the rest will follow

peace

Tone Deft wrote:omfg no.

get her a nylon string guitar.

FFS teaching a kid how to launch clips, check e-mail and open/close filters is far from teaching them music, do that crap later. give them instruments YOUNG, it'll pay off exponentially, that other shit will come naturally later if she develops an ear for music by playing an actual instrument.

+1

in an early age teach a real instrument, even i agree that live is somehow a modern electronic instrument, but it's certainly not the right thing to get kids developing a real musical feeling and skills, just look how most of the people struggle here on this forum who can't play a real instrument or don't have a classical music education to get something decent out of live. (just see the mastering threads, etc. and there non understanding and yes i relate to that, because there are certain chains... to help understanding... one step after the other... and i don't think live comes first!)

(not saying it's applying to all guys, but a classic instrument / music education is always a very good idea, makes it even easier to break the learned rules, for creativity)

p.s. i don't have a classic music education of any form... though playing a bit of instruments... (mainly drums, percussive stuff) but i regret it and if i could turn back the time, i would learn an instrument properly and then all the stuff i know now.

++1 - if I hadn't learned up on the instrument first it wouldn't have entered my head (or I just wouldn't have given a crap) that I could actually engage with the music that was going on around me. For me I found Live/DAWs through a desire to create musical worlds/constructs only as a refinement of the mind-opening that was learning an isntrument. If I hadn't learned piano I wouldn't be where I am today. (typing into a box on a bratwurst-fest forum )

Everyone has a different path though.

Why is it that there has been over 30 replies to my original post, yet pretty much none of them have got fuck all to do with my original post and have just gone off on a total tangent?

If you lot want to talk about random bollocks why not start your own thread?

I wanted to discuss making Live more friendly for kids, not the merits of Guitar Hero, real instruments vs software or anything else.

So how about some replies on topic????

Chill dude, the answers (at least the ones I've read, think I skipped page 2) have been on topic, just obviously not the answers you wanted; being basically along the lines of "FFS have her learn a real instrument first".

If I wanted to just tell you what you wanted to hear, I would have said buy her an OLPC.

double post

Where i work we're allowed to do one day helping in the community some how. I chose to go to a local school and do music with them.

we used DanceEJay for PC, which is an ideal starting point to get them into sequencing and making a song quickly. Remember kids want instant gratification! It actually has a pretty nifty text to robotic speech converter and loads of sounds they can load and loop up, great way to start. bear in mind i only have two horus with them. At the end they can all produce something and we discuss the build ups and elements they put in their tracks.

As for guitar hero leading to real guitar, it certainly has boosted interest in guitar rock again. GNRs popularity soaring purely cos the kids play guitar hero.

A friend's son now plays real guitar becasue of his interest in guitar hero and hes taking it really seriously, his finger work is excellent for a kid his age.

Its a shame she doesnt have a mac took, garageband is a highly underrated bit of music making kit, not just a loop machine.

jonny72 wrote:Why is it that there has been over 30 replies to my original post, yet pretty much none of them have got fuck all to do with my original post and have just gone off on a total tangent?

If you lot want to talk about random bollocks why not start your own thread?

I wanted to discuss making Live more friendly for kids, not the merits of Guitar Hero, real instruments vs software or anything else.

So how about some replies on topic????

i think we are all very on topic, because if you consider our answers, there is no need nor interest to make live kids friendly, make kids learn about music then they grow up and can use live in an adult version.

SubFunk wrote:make kids learn about music then they grow up and can use live in an adult version.

Or not as my argument goes. Give them the freedom to explore Live and other Electronic music making. Garageband is excellent for this in particular. If they want a "real" instrument, encourage that. But by all means do not "make kids learn about music". Keep it loose and fun and they will gravitate to it naturally....or not.

Mulabs could be great as well... uber simple and enjoyable and intuitive.

i have a friend who teaches Cubase, Logic, Reason etc. to primary-school kids... he's got this one pupil who's 9 and is already fully proficient in Logic. 9!!!

rbro wrote:

SubFunk wrote:make kids learn about music then they grow up and can use live in an adult version.

Or not as my argument goes. Give them the freedom to explore Live and other Electronic music making. Garageband is excellent for this in particular. If they want a "real" instrument, encourage that. But by all means do not "make kids learn about music". Keep it loose and fun and they will gravitate to it naturally....or not.

sorry my english, that "about" you can cancel.

clear what i tried to say?

jonny72 wrote:Why is it that there has been over 30 replies to my original post, yet pretty much none of them have got fuck all to do with my original post and have just gone off on a total tangent?

If you lot want to talk about random bollocks why not start your own thread?

I wanted to discuss making Live more friendly for kids, not the merits of Guitar Hero, real instruments vs software or anything else.

So how about some replies on topic????

My 3 year old uses live as I mentioned earlier. This post contains his first composition.
Although I had to help him out with it (he can't read very well yet) his basic grasp of what's going on there is very good - I would rather encourage and nurture this than use a dumbed down version with him. He won't understand a lot of it for some time, but there is a lot there that is not too complicated for kids to use as it stands.

In my little world I teach music to 87 kids each week. Guitar, keyboard and drums. Of the 87 only 3 have migrated to the concepts of digitally recording their music. I always have Live open and the keyboard set up. It is however not viewed as an instrument, or even actually making music. This is their opinion, not mine.

The number 1 problem these kids face, at least the ones that move beyond just blindly following the exercises I give them is, HOW IS MUSIC MADE. Just yesterday I discussed with a talented 10 yr old the concept of using the 1st, 4th and 5th of a scale to create a musical path or structure for a song. If I start in A, where do I go next for it to sound good?? The kid can play very well, but that is only one dimension to playing and indeed making music.

The beauty of actually learning a physical instrument, most anyway, is that you engage your various senses more fully than launching clips or loops. With a keyboard, your vision including periphery vision and fine and gross motor skills are all developed in conjunction with counting, timing and rhythmic development. You are not waiting for the loop to take care of it for you. You also get to know and recognize the structure of chord patterns and the movement of keys to form a lead part. Overtime these things happen in almost instantaneous time, done without thinking but with feeling. These skills, on whatever physical musical instrument become the hall marks of musicianship. Some people do better at this than others.

I am not saying that the computer is not an instrument. I will say that if it is the main or sole means of creating music in a way that bypasses the potential intimate relationship a person can develop with a physical instrument, then you can be left without certain types of musical development. The computer can make the lack of that development irrelevant though. In some instances it can quickly make up any lack of skill and get you to the end result which is making music.

Some people though prefer not to skip the actual process of generating the sounds themselves. They take some pride in the journey they have taken to train the bodies and minds.

I was quite serious about electronic music being only for rich kids, or kids where dads have already splurged lots of money. I live in a wealthy part of town. I am going to great pains to find a combination of software and equipment that will fit easily into an average parents budget, (assuming its not just another fad for the kid). So far, I estimate that for the price of getting a kid into electronic music, it could cost 1 to 5 times more than buying a guitar and paying for a years worth of lessons with me.

Give kids a chance to learn the language of music and the related discipline of teaching their minds and bodies actual skills before shoving a computer in front of them. If indeed they find themselves involved in electronic music later on, they won't regret the first hand experience.

My useless 2c.